The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Maybe he'll try FumbleFingers2 this time.
    We should probably have a contest to see who spots him first. The prize is a Super 400 and a Berklee Online Course.

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That is 2017 Christian .. I like the 2022 version a lot more ...


    Maybe I am mistaken and they are both the same?
    ive had a few firmware upgrades since then

    Or maybe downgrades

  4. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    We should probably have a contest to see who spots him first. The prize is a Super 400 and a Berklee Online Course.
    Some of us should also create fake accounts and imitate Don (shouldn't be that hard). Prize should be given to those who can spot the real one from the clones.

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Does it really?

    I mean, sure ... you can write stuff like ... "And here the tune changes key into a blah blah blah ... "

    But in reality the composer could be just "So I played these random chords and thought they sounded good together. Then I just played chord tones with a bit of passing notes and boom .. There you have it".


    Or as a different typical example could be long essays the many chords in the ending of a tune and then you hear from the guy playing it and he is like "I was just thinking G7 over those bars before resolving to C".


    Just asking questions ... Not portraying myself as an expert
    yeah you are basically right, things like DOWAR… they are very conventional? I like it does a load of obvious stuff. If you learn a ton of those types of tunes there’s basically nothing remarkable about the tune (although the Mancini changes and Wes ones are a bit more interesting than the real book.)

    I don’t think a lot of learners realise how standard a lot of standards are… so to speak. We generally come from like blues rock or metal and our brains literally explode at the mildest change of mode, so we don’t have a clue about songbook harmony. Pianists have been pressed into service accompanying singers they fancy from early adolescence so they have more exposure to this stuff than us failed rock star wannabes.

    So the best way to learn how jazz standards harmony is to learn hundreds of jazz standards like that (tin pan alley things not Wayne). You can get books about it of course, but I’m not sure if it helps. If you want to be good at playing jazz standards you are going to have to do this work at some point. So I go for immersion.

    The way I do it is point out common patterns in tunes and say ‘put a pin in that’ and give it some sort of name. But learning the tune teaches you how this shit sounds and that’s more valuable. I have to say in this case I just think ‘theory schmeory, learn more songs’

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Some of us should also create fake accounts and imitate Don (shouldn't be that hard). Prize should be given to those who can spot the real one from the clones.
    Maybe that’s how he started. But now he has become the mask,

  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yes and then they called it Cm6 because that was a convenient label. So that’s what I said.

    You get these chords on IV in Bach etc as a type of dissonant chord. not sure when they started being used on I as just a nice sound, but you can obviously hear it here for instance [video of Django's Minor Swing]

    You go and listen to the music of that era and they clearly like the maj6 on minor a LOT.
    George Gershwin's Summertime (composed in 1934) relies on Bm6 to set the feeling of the song. Without that maj6 on the minor, it's hard to do justice to the song.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    George Gershwin's Summertime (composed in 1934) relies on Bm6 to set the feeling of the song. Without that maj6 on the minor, it's hard to do justice to the song.
    In fact it’s two m6s a step away from each other iirc?

  9. #133

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    ... or is the second chord really an F#9? hmmm....

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Again I'm not an expert by any measure .. But I convinced myself it was a E9(/B) .. and just thought i-V .. Also seen it played like Am -> Bb which is just in my mind just became a substitution for a V. [...]
    I surmise you're playing it in the key of Am. In the operatic version, the aria starts in Bm, which is the key to which I was referring.

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Again I'm not an expert by any measure .. But I convinced myself it was a E9(/B) .. and just thought i-V .. Also seen it played like Am -> Bb which is just in my mind just became a substitution for a V.


    Any of you seen this vid btw?

    Yeah labelling these things is sometimes about telling a story.

    end of the day that’s the sound, parallel tritone. Certainly not a conventional resolution V7-I resolution in classical terms.

    But yeah, Charlie Christian would play E7 Am like that, Bm6 Am6.

    This is the interesting ambiguity about m6 chords they also get used to stand in dominants (and half diminished) at least in jazz. And then ‘melodic minors’, important minor or whatever you call it etc etc

  12. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    ... or is the second chord really an F#9? hmmm....
    I don’t care. Call it what you like.

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yes and then they called it Cm6 because that was a convenient label. So that’s what I said.

    You get these chords on IV in Bach etc as a type of dissonant chord. not sure when they started being used on I as just a nice sound, but you can obviously hear it here for instance;



    You go and listen to the music of that era and they clearly like the maj6 on minor a LOT.
    It's not just restricted to accompaniment either. Lester Young played around the m6 sound a lot, especially on a minor key tune like Dickie's Dream (solo at 1'23"):



    I also hear it everywhere in solos by Prez's disciple, Charlie Christian. On a related note, the melody of the 'A' section in Lionel Hampton's Till Tom Special (as recorded by Hamp with Benny Goodman and CC) is made up entirely from an Fm6:


  14. #138

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    Oiks – you got me, Lobo. I only type, I never play. It is so embarrassing to be called out on the internet! /snark

    I was merely mentioning that I was talking about a different key than you were. But I realize that this is your favorite challenge, so have at it. I won't take it personally.

    Christian: I was kidding.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    OK, I missed that you where in Bm ...



    But OK, but this isn't Opera.be ... I always see it called in Am



    Are you the kind that is more about documentation than actually doing?
    You must play it in the singer’s key!

  16. #140

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    Apparently, there's no way to block the entire Theory subforum. <g>

  17. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    We generally come from like blues rock or metal and our brains literally explode at the mildest change of mode, so we don’t have a clue about songbook harmony…
    … the best way to learn how jazz standards harmony is to learn hundreds of jazz standards…
    … you are going to have to do this work at some point … I go for immersion…
    That would be me. Including the immersion part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The way I do it is point out common patterns in tunes and say ‘put a pin in that’ and give it some sort of name.
    +1. Same here.

    My take on it is like any other education. You go to school, you learn stuff, you choose what to forget and what not, and then you do whatever you want and make something out of your life. Music is no different. I’m self-taught and have been playing by ear all my life. Now I want to understand more of it. Christian’s ‘pin method’ is how I go about learning tunes. But I don’t need a lot of theory for that purpose. However I might need a bit more to be able to do this:

    Edit: can’t post an Insta vid here, hoped to post Rick Beato’s Connecting the sounds of minor - learning your arpeggios quick lesson from Jan 21st.

    I’d like to be able to play like that because a) it’s really beautiful and it moves me; b) because technically my hands can easily do this but it’s all about note choice and understanding what works when and why.

    (Oh, and theory is fun. Just like talking gear is fun.)

  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    Oiks – you got me, Lobo. I only type, I never play. It is so embarrassing to be called out on the internet! /snark

    I was merely mentioning that I was talking about a different key than you were. But I realize that this is your favorite challenge, so have at it. I won't take it personally.

    Christian: I was kidding.
    i think my last post came across a little harsher than intended. I think I was trying to say names don’t matter so much, but I could have said it in a less dickish way. But yeah, I get you.

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    i think my last post came across a little harsher than intended. [...]
    No worries. It's all good.

    Regarding what we need to learn in order to play jazz:

    I appreciate the video by Tim Lerch about whether one needs to learn modes and scales, where he says (in his candidly charming way) at 3:08:

    "Of course, we always hear that 'Wes Montgomery didn't blah blah blah' and 'Django Reinhart didn't blah...' – well, guess what. You're on the internet looking at a video about how to improvise, and that means you aren't going to be able to do what Wes Montgomery did or what Django Reinhardt did. It means you need some help. And I don't blame you for that – we all need help!"


  20. #144

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    I find it very easy to make up music ideas by combining rhythm ideas and harmonic sets of notes. Usually I will evaluate the result with my ear and ask myself if it was satisfactory for me. If it wasn't, I ask myself why not and that's the end of it. I can also use theory to hear the ideas other players use that I like. Theory is only helpful used in these ways. The only way theory wouldn't be helpful is if it were used to the exclusion of any attempt to apply it musically or appraise the end result musically.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena

    "Of course, we always hear that 'Wes Montgomery didn't blah blah blah' and 'Django Reinhart didn't blah...' – well, guess what. You're on the internet looking at a video about how to improvise, and that means you aren't going to be able to do what Wes Montgomery did or what Django Reinhardt did. It means you need some help. And I don't blame you for that – we all need help!"
    I like that.

    I always find it funny that people cite bonafide musical geniuses as their reason as to why they "don't need to learn ____________."

    I think I'm going to start using people who suck as a basis for why I SHOULD learn something.

  22. #146
    In a minor II V I context, I believe the harmonized scale (harmonic, or melodic) places a min6/minM7 chord as the I chord. However, this is an inconvenience as it doesn't resolve in a way that many players hear it. So, the m6 get's substituted for a m7. I think Django purists use the m6 more, and you do hear that harmonic minor being used more than in US jazz.

    The other contexts you hear it used are with a descending line eg Dm, DmM7, Dm7, Dm6, or as a dominant 9 with the 5th in the root.

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
    In a minor II V I context, I believe the harmonized scale (harmonic, or melodic) places a min6/minM7 chord as the I chord. However, this is an inconvenience as it doesn't resolve in a way that many players hear it. So, the m6 get's substituted for a m7. I think Django purists use the m6 more, and you do hear that harmonic minor being used more than in US jazz.

    The other contexts you hear it used are with a descending line eg Dm, DmM7, Dm7, Dm6, or as a dominant 9 with the 5th in the root.
    Well not quite - leaning on the b7 in a minor key is more of a 60s thing, it creates a modal minor sound rather than a true minor, which was more the vibe in the 50s. This ‘true minor’ sound could mean a m6 sound, but actually bop lines stick on the minor triad surprisingly often.

    Barry Harris was famous for teaching 6th chords as the basis of his harmonic approach (which is relatively old school.)

    Harmonic minor is used quite a lot in bop. And I hear Dorian in gypsy jazz and 30s swing (as well as melodic) OTOH….

    Anyway for modern style players all these options are available, I think players still often prefer to avoid the b7 on a minor chord, or understand the difference in the tonalities.

    When I had a lesson with Peter Bernstein he told me off for using a m7 as a I chord … should be minor, m6 or m(maj7) (or m6/9) unless you are going for a specifically modal minor sound. I think the point is to know the difference. Melodic minor also offers a lot of possibilities for interesting sounds.

    Historical aspects aside m7 is my least favourite chord for a minor I chord; to me it always sounds like the major triad - F on D for instance, so it waters down the minor sound. It sounds sort of chilled out. It doesn’t really sound like minor anymore.

    That might be the effect you want but even if I do want a b7 in the minor chord the m7 is not my first choice; I prefer m9 or even m11 as a voicing. (Mike Moreno referred to m7 disparagingly as an ‘R&B chord not a jazz chord’ lol.)

    If a m6 is too old school but you want that quite dark dissonant melodic minor/Dorian type sound I think a m6/9 is a good choice. I really like madd9 as a basic minor tonality, it leaves the nature of what minor scale you want to use over it very open. It can actually sound best to avoid the 6th and 7th altogether in minor lines and harmony, if you want to have that true, sad minor.

    m(maj7) sounds are quite intense, more dissonant and ‘exotic.’

    (Another reason why you might want to not use a m7 is on the IV chord; quite often the melody is on 6 or 7.)

    Minors are complicated beasts. It’s good to be discerning…
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-25-2022 at 07:10 PM.

  24. #148

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    I haven't used madd9 much. I like that sound and idea. Sounds elegant and jazzy without being overly intense and signifies a i chord.

  25. #149

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    There are four sounds under discussion here.

    R 2 b3 4 5 are common to all.

    6 b7, dorian minor

    6 nat7, melodic minor

    b6 b7, natural minor

    b6 nat 7, harmonic minor.

    Now you're on the bandstand. You can hear, pretty well, one hopes, what the comping instrument is playing, although you can phrase with it or against it. You know the flow of the harmony. You are trying to create melody.

    So, to my way of thinking, you pick the notes by ear.

    There are things of historical and theoretical interest that seem to help some players, but to my mind, it's learning the sounds and playing them with great time feel and the vocabulary you want. There's a vocabulary that sounds like "classic jazz guitar" to me, and I love it when I hear it, but not everybody has to use it.

    I approach theory discussions with trepidation. I've definitely gotten some things from theoretical foundations into my playing, but this doesn't seem to need to be one of them. Pick a 6. Pick a 7. If you don't like the result, pick different ones.

  26. #150

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    Either playing solo where I provide all the harmony, or playing with a combo, I know the sounds and have command of all the minor chords or scales in my repertoire. The theory of it and the sound of it aren't at odds in my head or playing, they're the same thing.