The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    It isn't, I don't accept unarguable authority.
    I don’t ask you or anyone to agree with what I’m saying you daft sausage. I’m not jazz Stalin (yet).

    Neither was what I said exactly watertight academic level shit, but I did mention Tunedex historical charts etc.

    in practice you said the same thing I said only with even less evidence lol.

    Classic. I’d say you were trolling but I’m not entirely sure you are doing it purpose. Schrodinger’s trolling?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    I get the impression that Ragman wants to use theories to explain the sounds he plays in his solos ....
    It is undoubtedly hard work.
    Practical ear training is an easier way-I think so.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I get the impression that Ragman wants to use theories to explain the sounds he plays in his solos ....
    It is undoubtedly hard work.
    Practical ear training is an easier way-I think so.
    i think it would improve his playing. It generally improves everyone’s playing.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Probably the IVm (or even iv in a minor tune) ought to be a m6 because it's congruent with the key. I always play it as m6 anyway. Like changing the final major chord to a 6 rather than a M7 because it's a more stable sound.
    Sure. Although chords do have a habit of migrating over time from their original uses to other ones.

    Which brings us back to the very wise idea that the theory is only a guide, not a law, and we can play what sounds best to us.
    This is where people get me wrong. I don’t really care about the theory side of it I know all that shit, it’s not interesting to me; melodic minor Dorian yada yada whatever

    what I would actually like to know (and this is in no way important for actually playing music, this is more of academic point) is when musicians started using this sound in this way. I think probably 30s? But I’d love it if someone could tell me more.

  6. #80
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    When you learned to speak some basic English (typically around the age of 2), what theory were you using?
    Theory may help you understand the language of jazz but it never makes you speak it. I thought that was common knowledge but since there are ongoing and endless discussions on the subject I was wrong about that. I wrote about that on my Blog here.

    To speak the language of jazz you have to go to the sounds. The good old "imitate-assimilate-innovate" principle.

    Whether a player has done the right things in his jazz studies should not be judged from the amount of theory he is typing on this here forum. To an experiened ear, that is obvious from the clips he posts.

    You can be a theory pundit and still sound like shit because you never assimilated the language of jazz. You may know the rules without being able to speak it well.

    I always focused on the sounds, the language myself. I did use theory to understand what was going on, but that was always secondary.

    DB

  7. #81
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I like Van Hemert's comment on this. If you try to learn music by transcribing Django but fail ... Then at the end you still end up sounding like Django .. and Django sounds pretty good. If you try to learn music thru theory and fail then you end up with nothing
    It's impossible to learn music through theory only. That's like trying to learn a language by reading a grammar book. Can't be done.
    DB

  8. #82

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    Yeah DB. I also feel people get the wrong end of the stick because when talking about playing you inevitably end up using some sort of labels for what you are doing; unless you flat refuse to talk about it of course.

    So when a player says ‘this is D melodic minor thing I’m using on G7’ for instance in a masterclass or online lesson, that might give people the impression that’s how they came up with the line, rather than just a labelling for the type of sound it is and maybe they got the line from Trane or someone, or maybe it’s their own take on a Parker lick or something.

    (Some players do in fact come up with lines that way, but they tend to be good musicians with good ears and feel, not beginners.)

    That said the most important thing that makes any of this stuff sound like jazz is the rhythm and feel and that can only be learned by ear; theory is generally pretty quiet about those things; you can play a stepwise scale and if it swings it will sound like jazz. If you can play one note with rhythm you can play jazz as Sonny said. If you can’t, there’s your problem, and that’s what I spend much of my time working on, not new ways to stack notes.

    Transcription is the best way of learning how simple note choices are most of the time and how much of it is in the rhythm. Theory books tend to focus of the interesting exceptions.

  9. #83
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yeah DB. I also feel people get the wrong end of the stick because when talking about playing you inevitably end up using some sort of labels for what you are doing; unless you flat refuse to talk about it of course.

    So when a player says ‘this is D melodic minor thing I’m using on G7’ for instance in a masterclass or online lesson, that might give people the impression that’s how they came up with the line, rather than just a labelling for the type of sound it is and maybe they got the line from Trane or someone.
    I usually check out clips of jazz theory pundits to see where they are coming from. I have observed in some cases that some people that type about certain scales (altered, melodic minor) actually never use these in their playing which is sometimes not more than diatonic noodling. So the stuff they are typing about does not translate at all into their playing. It's only cognition, NOT actual behavior. Theory is a complete pitfall in that case. You know it but can't do it. It only provides a false sense of having mastered something.

    DB
    Last edited by Dutchbopper; 01-24-2022 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    So when a player says ‘this is D melodic minor thing I’m using on G7’ for instance in a masterclass or online lesson, that might give people the impression that’s how they came up with the line, rather than just a labelling for the type of sound it is and maybe they got the line from Trane or someone, or maybe it’s their own take on a Parker lick or something.
    Not if they are Barry Harris students. Then they may have actually come up with their lines from scales and arpeggios combined with codified bebop line building devices. Although the particular scale in this case would most likely be called the tritones minor instead of melodic minor. As you know these lines can sound pretty good.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-24-2022 at 10:10 AM.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    I usually check out clips of jazz theory pundits to see where they are coming from. I have observed in some cases that some people that type about certain scales (altered, melodic minor) actually never use these in their playing which is sometimes not more than diatonic noodling. So the stuff they are typing about does not translate at all into their playing. It's only cognition, NOT actual behavior. Theory is a complete pitfall in that case. You know it but can't do it. It only provides a false sense of having mastered something.

    DB
    there’s money in giving people that feeling…

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Not if they are Barry Harris students. Then they may have actually come up with their lines from scales and arpeggios combined with codified bebop line building devices. Although the particular scale in this case would most likely be called the tritones minor instead of melodic minor. As you know these lines can sound pretty good.
    Who is Barry Harris? Never heard of him.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Who is Barry Harris? Never heard of him.
    OK then I understand why you would say this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    So when a player says ‘this is D melodic minor thing I’m using on G7’ for instance in a masterclass or online lesson, that might give people the impression that’s how they came up with the line, rather than just a labelling for the type of sound it is and maybe they got the line from Trane or someone, or maybe it’s their own take on a Parker lick or something.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    OK then I understand why you would say this:
    You presumably realise Barry was pretty much teaching by ear in real time? He might talk you through how he came up with stuff, but he was communicating it aurally.

    it wasn’t just some system in a book.

    Thats why Howard Rees did the DVD’s, right?

  15. #89

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    If the OP hasn't run off in fear--

    it's a minor 6 because all chord spelling for all types of chords is based on the MAJOR scale.

    So your formula for a m6 is R, b3, 5, 6.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    You realise Barry was pretty much teaching by ear in real time right? He might talk you through how he came up with stuff, but he was communicating it aurally.

    it wasn’t some system in a book.
    But you do get why he is saying how he came up with the stuff like that, right? There is an interplay between the ears and the concepts. Concepts are what you use in the woodshed creatively. So you are supposed to be thinking these building blocks when you're working on building lines "between the workshops". Which is why Howard also published an accompanying book outlining the rules, devices, exercises with music notation.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    If the OP hasn't run off in fear--

    it's a minor 6 because all chord spelling for all types of chords is based on the MAJOR scale.

    So your formula for a m6 is R, b3, 5, 6.
    So G7 is G B D F#

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    But you do get why he is saying how he came up with the stuff like that, right? There is an interplay between the ears and the concepts. Concepts are what you use in the woodshed creatively. So you are thinking of these building blocks when you're building lines initially. Which is why Howard also published an accompanying book outlining the rules, devices, exercises with music notation.
    If you like, have another look at post #87. If not, don’t worry.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    So G7 is G B D F#
    Smartass

    The formula for a 7 chord is 1 3 5 b7.

    I know you're joking, but why are we making this difficult for beginners? Know your major scales, know your formulas. Some of the stuff in this thread bounds on gatekeeping...

  20. #94

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    Online, I notice people often read statements a certain way.

    For instance, if I say ‘theory is not necessary’ people often take this to mean ‘theory is never helpful’ or even ‘theory is harmful’ which to me are not at all the same statement.

    I then often add extra text to try and make it clear (which just has the effect of making things long winded probably.)

    A lot of the verbiage on JGO is generated by readings of this kind, attempts at further explanations and then the various camps entrenching about whatever thing they think the other person has said and basically talking past one another.

    Maybe John A could tell me the formal name for this kind of thing.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Smartass

    The formula for a 7 chord is 1 3 5 b7.

    I know you're joking, but why are we making this difficult for beginners? Know your major scales, know your formulas. Some of the stuff in this thread bounds on gatekeeping...
    see the first page of the thread

    whats wrong with ‘it’s just a convention’? FSS if it’s good enough for maths…

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    If you like, have another look at post #87. If not, don’t worry.
    I should remember to quote the original posts fully so the version of the post I'm responding to is more clear.

  23. #97

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    I think we should all agree on something. Those who say:
    "You don't need ears or language. Just play the 7th mode of melodic minor up and down, up and down, then dorian up and down, up and down. You're gonna sound great." are assholes.
    I haven't met anyone who said this but apparently they are everywhere.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-25-2022 at 09:40 AM.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I should remember to quote the original posts fully so the version of the post I'm responding to is more clear.
    i did also edit it. I shouldn’t do that as much as I do but instead take more time before posting probably.

    I usually do it to clarify something I feel is unclear or if the language comes across as a bit rude or whatever.

  25. #99
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    there’s money in giving people that feeling…
    Yes. And closer to home (here) ... some credibility? I sometimes think the typing of theory has become a substitute for actual playing. As if you can type yourself into jazz significance? I dunno. The whole theory thing is alien to my nature. It bores the hell out of me. Never indulge in it.

    DB

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I think we should agree on something. Those who say:
    "You don't need ears or language. Just play the 7th mode of melodic minor up and down, up and down, than dorian up and down, up and down. You're gonna sound great." are assholes.
    I haven't met anyone who said this but apparently they are everywhere.
    Quite a few people seem to play like that though.