The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Theory has a place and this is not it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Presumably some essential ingredients of jazz, which ultimately came from Africa (i.e. the rhythmic elements, and the blues) were developed without much theory?

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Presumably some essential ingredients of jazz, which ultimately came from Africa (i.e. the rhythmic elements, and the blues) were developed without much theory?
    Depends on what you mean by theory. (Ducks)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar67
    Doc w and setemupjoe gave the answer that I was sort of hoping for when I asked the question. As for the rest, this is a treasure trove that’ll keep me busy for a while. I’ll be re-reading this many times, guitar in hand.

    To briefly summarize the main points of the answers as I saw them fly by:

    Accept it and move on:
    -history/convention
    -notation in jazz oriented towards working musicians’ perspective
    -a b6 in a m6 chord isn’t used much (except in Brazilian jazz) and notation needs to be brief & simple

    Sound
    -a 6 in m6 sounds nicer to most folks than a b6
    -context is everything, i.e. bass notes
    -there are different ways to interpret the chord (in this case for example first inversion maj9)

    Theory
    -minor harmony in jazz is mostly based on ascending melodic minor, which has the 6 in it, which makes the chord name m6 consistent with that scale

    Other
    -mi7#5 isn’t the same as mi7b6 (#5 vs P5 + b6)
    -lots of mileage in x5856x

    Brazilian charts do sometimes have m7#5, eg in some of Toninho Horta's compositions. mb6 is an inversion of a maj7 chord and I can't recall ever seeing mb6 in a Brazilian chart.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Depends on what you mean by theory. (Ducks)
    I don’t think it was taught by ducks, but I could be wrong.

  7. #56

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    m7#5 and m7b6 are not the same chord, as was just pointed out.

    One does not have a natural 5th.

    But, take C Eb G G# Bb. How do you play that on guitar? 8660x6? It's a difficult chord to play in any key.

    Another small point. Typically, on guitar Dm7b6 (you don't see that symbol much, but I mean D Bb C F A), if played with both the 5 and #5, the notes are voiced a major 7th apart, not a minor second. So you don't hear the dissonance. It's a smooth sounding chord eg played as x58565.

    [Just to make this clearer: x5856x is Dm7#5. But, if you add the A on top, x58565, that grip has both 5 and #5, if you ignore which octave each note appears in. In this case, the #5 and 5 create a major 7th interval with the #5 as the lower note. It sounds smooth, like a major 7 with the root on the bottom and the nat7 on top. The chord symbol would be Dm7b6, but you don't see that often (I can't recall it). The notes are D F A Bb C; if an arranger wanted that set of notes, I think you'd see Bbmaj9/D.]

    If I wanted to play D A Bb C F, I'd probably switch to piano.

    On guitar, I think it would require open strings and then would only work in convenient keys. Em7b6 E G B C D could be played, but not in the exact order. You've got 3 open strings and then play C and D at the 15th and 12th frets. Probably there are other ways, but it's a tough chord to use.

    In reality, I'd tell myself that 5th is heard, faintly, as an overtone of the root, and then I'd fret the #5.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-23-2022 at 06:17 PM.

  8. #57

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  9. #58

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    I have opinions about alternative language and symbols that better frame my musical worldview than some of what is in common circulation.
    This serves me well when talking to myself or nerding out in conversation with another musician. But on the practical side, for a rehearsal or on the bandstand, it is of primary importance to me to understand (as much as possible) the language and symbols that I encounter and to communicate my ideas to other musicians with clarity.
    Last edited by bako; 01-23-2022 at 07:34 PM.

  10. #59

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    Because in jazz music 6th doesn't really change at all: b6 you can exchange for #5 and #6 is b7. You frequently build minor chords from dorian scale, where 6th is, well, a tone higher than 5th.

  11. #60

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    Because it is about intervals, not about scale degrees.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Presumably some essential ingredients of jazz, which ultimately came from Africa (i.e. the rhythmic elements, and the blues) were developed without much theory?
    Unwritten theory, perhaps. The point is that random noise isn't music but the moment you have something recognisable it implies organisation, which is theory.

  13. #62

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    When you learned to speak some basic English (typically around the age of 2), what theory were you using?

  14. #63

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    I was only copying sounds which presumably had some meaning for me. Obviously at that age I knew nothing but what I was copying had structure and meaning and that implies theory, or organisation if you prefer.

    The moment I say 'ball' meaning my round bouncy toy, and everyone knows what I mean, it implies someone worked it all out. I'd call that theory, however basic.

  15. #64

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    It doesn’t matter. Just learn the sound and how to play it, and make whatever theoretical justifications seem helpful if you need them and get on with it.

    Music is about playing not debating. If you want to do the latter become a musicologist or a theorist and hang up your guitar (like I did for the past year while doing my master’s, pretty much)

    musicians are artisans and (occasionally) artists; not intellectuals. Theory is useful in so far as it extends craft. We are not looking for the laws of nature.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Unwritten theory, perhaps. The point is that random noise isn't music but the moment you have something recognisable it implies organisation, which is theory.
    im not comfortable with that level of platonism. Not because I’m not a Platonist but mostly because music theory is ugly as AF, inconsistent and maps poorly to actual music.

    if truth is beauty and beauty truth than music theory must be strongly aligned to a self employed tradesman’s tax returns.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    It doesn’t matter. Just learn the sound and how to play it, and make whatever theoretical justifications seem helpful if you need them and get on with it.

    Music is about playing not debating. If you want to do the latter become a musicologist or a theorist and hang up your guitar.

    musicians are artisans and (occasionally) artists; not intellectuals. Theory is useful in so far as it extends craft. We are not looking for the laws of nature.
    You think I don't know this? I used to say that in response to a lot of your impenetrable meanderings and you got most irritated! Now you've apparently swapped sides!

    In any case I'm not debating, I'm just trying to work out where the m6 might have come from. I'm not even sure I'm doing theory either, come to that.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I was only copying sounds which presumably had some meaning for me. Obviously at that age I knew nothing but what I was copying had structure and meaning and that implies theory, or organisation if you prefer.

    The moment I say 'ball' meaning my round bouncy toy, and everyone knows what I mean, it implies someone worked it all out. I'd call that theory, however basic.
    What theory do birds use to organise the pitches of their songs?

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You think I don't know this? I used to say that in response to a lot of your impenetrable meanderings and you got most irritated! Now you've apparently swapped sides!

    In any case I'm not debating, I'm just trying to work out where the m6 might have come from. I'm not even sure I'm doing theory either, come to that.
    You clearly haven’t worked out by now that I am incapable of not arguing the toss. how many years has it been?

    That said, I don’t think I’ve ever argued music theory is important of itself.

    people do think of me as a theory guy. I know a lot of theory, it’s easy and quite interesting to me; it’s kind of a super nerdy hobby. the thing is I don’t really think it’s that important.

    I’ve also always been more interested in the history of ideas and how things were done than modern theory.

    i gave what I think is a fairly likely historical account of where the m6 chord symbol came from. If that isn’t good enough for you you are ascribing a degree of cosmic importance to music theory that I can’t really get behind.

  20. #69

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    To be honest, I’m just being a bit provocative cos I feel like it.

    I still think a lot of people learning jazz guitar don’t spend enough time on just using their ears and getting to the actual practice and doing.

    The result is often obvious in their playing, it seems to me.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    To be honest, I’m just being a bit provocative cos I feel like it.

    I still think a lot of people learning jazz guitar don’t spend enough time on just using their ears and getting to the actual practice and doing.

    The result is often obvious in their playing, it seems to me.
    you’ve changed lol. JGO broke you?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    What theory do birds use to organise the pitches of their songs?
    I'd say they don't, they just repeat sounds. Different sounds for different birds. You could say that was an organisation by nature... although we're into something else entirely then, like metaphysics, because it implies a mind of some kind.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    You clearly haven’t worked out by now that I am incapable of not arguing the toss. how many years has it been?
    Of course I know that... but it can be fun if it doesn't get out of hand

    That said, I don’t think I’ve ever argued music theory is important of itself.
    True. You usually go very theory and then put in your disclaimer.

    i gave a likely historical account of where the m6 chord came from. If that isn’t good enough for you
    It isn't, I don't accept unarguable authority.

    you are ascribing a degree of cosmic importance to music theory that I can’t really get behind.
    Platonism? Cosmic importance? Nope, just passing the time of day :-)

  24. #73

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    Anyway, my take is still that someone popped an A into the C chord and thought 'That sounds nice. What if I change it to a Cm? Wow, that's nice too!'.

    See, really deep theory :-)

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Anyway, my take is still that someone popped an A into the C chord and thought 'That sounds nice. And what if I change it to a Cm? Wow, that's nice too!'.

    See, really deep theory :-)
    Yes and then they called it Cm6 because that was a convenient label. So that’s what I said.

    You get these chords on IV in Bach etc as a type of dissonant chord. not sure when they started being used on I as just a nice sound, but you can obviously hear it here for instance;



    You go and listen to the music of that era and they clearly like the maj6 on minor a LOT.

  26. #75

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    Probably the IVm (or even iv in a minor tune) ought to be a m6 because it's congruent with the key. I always play it as m6 anyway. Like changing the final major chord to a 6 rather than a M7 because it's a more stable sound.

    Which brings us back to the very wise idea that the theory is only a guide, not a law, and we can play what sounds best to us.