The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Can you help me understand why this chord name change occurs?-chnage-chord-name-jpg


    Greetings. I have this pictured chord progression (Bars 1-7). The material states that one can move the three string triad to different frets with the root note changing with each move on the neck as one might expect. BUT the chord nomenclature is changed on one of the moves to a very different interpretation.

    The written progression is C Cm7 D Db C

    Why was it not called C Eb D Db C ?

    Why was there a name change to Cm7?

    I can see that this shape at the 8th fret contains the b3 5 and b7 from a Cm7 chord, but why the name change?

    Please note that I am an absolute beginner at music theory so I am hoping you can keep your answer at a newbie level. Thanks so much!

    (I wasn't sure whether to put this in "chord progressions" or "theory" section of the forum - what would have been best?)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hard to say, maybe the author wanted to highlight that the same shape/triad can have a different function depending on the root. Or liked the convenience of staying on the same root for melodic ideas. Or just heard it that way.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photonic
    Can you help me understand why this chord name change occurs?-chnage-chord-name-jpg


    Greetings. I have this pictured chord progression (Bars 1-7). The material states that one can move the three string triad to different frets with the root note changing with each move on the neck as one might expect. BUT the chord nomenclature is changed on one of the moves to a very different interpretation.

    The written progression is C Cm7 D Db C

    Why was it not called C Eb D Db C ?

    Why was there a name change to Cm7?

    I can see that this shape at the 8th fret contains the b3 5 and b7 from a Cm7 chord, but why the name change?

    Please note that I am an absolute beginner at music theory so I am hoping you can keep your answer at a newbie level. Thanks so much!

    (I wasn't sure whether to put this in "chord progressions" or "theory" section of the forum - what would have been best?)

    It really could be written either way. A minor chord, in this case Cm7, is interchangeable with the Major chord build off the third of the m7, which would be Eb in this scenario. They can be thought of and used interchangeably especially when it comes to jazz improvisation. If you spell out a Eb Major, Eb-G-Bb, it contains all the notes of a Cm7 except the root, which when improvising is one of the least interesting notes anyway. Look up 3-5-7-9 arpeggios for more examples of this.

  5. #4

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    Looks to me like it's "Green Dolphin Street," which would put all of those chords eventually over a C bass...and of course, you could say Eb/C, but Cm sure gets the point across quicker.

  6. #5

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    These are rootless voicings. Handy when you are playing with a bass player.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    These are rootless voicings. Handy when you are playing with a bass player.
    All the cool cats double the root

  8. #7

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    "Green Dolphin Street", I presume? You're on the right track, what is tabbed out is actually C Eb D Db, and you notice correctly that an 8th fret Eb triad contains the b3 5 b7 of a C minor 7th chord.

    It's common practice to consider the chords played on the guitar in the context of how they sound when playing in a larger ensemble. If a bassist is playing a low C, a simple Eb triad sounds like a fuller Cm7 chord.( This concept can really be developed to form all manner of complex chords) But it's understandable to be confused if the name change is presented arbitrarily with no further clarification



    It's unfortunate that a lot of entry level jazz guitar material can be presented somewhat confusingly and sloppily, with the worst of it being flat out wrong. It helps to listen to a lot of jazz, and find a good professional teacher if possible. Best wishes for your music!

    PK

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    All the cool cats double the root
    So do I.
    But I bet that was the context of the material OP is asking about.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-19-2022 at 08:20 AM.

  10. #9

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    But yes, these are indeed rootless voicings.

    One way you can look at any root position seventh chord is as a triad plus a bass note, so for example.

    So Cm7 is Eb triad with a C bass
    Fmaj7 is an Am triad with an F in the bass
    Dm7b5 is an Fm triad with a D in the bass and so on

    So this allows you to have rootless seventh chords that look like triads.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    "Green Dolphin Street", I presume? You're on the right track, what is tabbed out is actually C Eb D Db, and you notice correctly that an 8th fret Eb triad contains the b3 5 b7 of a C minor 7th chord.

    It's common practice to consider the chords played on the guitar in the context of how they sound when playing in a larger ensemble. If a bassist is playing a low C, a simple Eb triad sounds like a fuller Cm7 chord.( This concept can really be developed to form all manner of complex chords) But it's understandable to be confused if the name change is presented arbitrarily with no further clarification



    It's unfortunate that a lot of entry level jazz guitar material can be presented somewhat confusingly and sloppily, with the worst of it being flat out wrong. It helps to listen to a lot of jazz, and find a good professional teacher if possible. Best wishes for your music!

    PK
    This was super helpful. Didn't realize one shape could have multiple names.
    Didn't realize that a shape might have a different label depending on what the bass player is doing.
    Yes, agreed when you are as newbie as I, many things are often left out by teachers.
    Yes, this is Dolphin Street, an easy strum along version to get started.
    Thanks to Paul and everyone for their help

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photonic
    This was super helpful. Didn't realize one shape could have multiple names.
    This is a huge thing you'll see again and again in jazz...don't let it intimidate you-- it becomes incredibly useful.

    It's dry and boring, but make sure you get your fretboard down and learn how to spell chords--know which notes are in them, not just shapes. Then you'll be able to make sense of the synonyms.

  13. #12

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    Some bass players may give you a hard time if you play the roots. But you can always play the Barry Harris card and make them look like they don't know what they are talking about. Ha ha.

    Nevertheless, I think rootless voicings are good things to have in your comping arsenal.

  14. #13

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    When a band is playing a song, the chord the audience hears includes notes played by different instruments. Not every player plays the whole chord.

    This is most common with the bass note. The bassist plays it, so it's heard. Not everybody needs to play it.

    In this case, the author seems to be thinking about the bass note, without explicitly saying what's going on.

    Green Dolphin Street is often played with a C in the bass for the first two chords, sometimes more. The second one is an Eb triad over a C in the bass, which, of course, is Cm7.

    Calling it a Cm7 makes perfect sense if you assume there's a bassist playing a C.

    Of course, when the author shows an Ebmaj triad in the diagram and calls it a Cm7, that can be confusing. But, naming the chord that way will tell the bassist that the root of the chord is a C. This is an argument for reading the instruction book backwards <g>.

    Another subtle point is that the band may sound better with the bassist playing the C and the guitarist playing the Eb triad -- without the C. The C in a lower octave can sound good with a triad in a higher octave. The absence of notes in between can sound good.

    This is an issue of taste, but it's easy enough to try it both ways.

  15. #14
    Lot's of eye opening information here I was not aware of.
    Attached Images Attached Images Can you help me understand why this chord name change occurs?-bowing-japanese-man-gif 

  16. #15

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    Didn't realize one shape could have multiple names.
    Didn't realize that a shape might have a different label depending on what the bass player is doing.
    Shapes are just fingerings. Notes that they consist of and context imply what chord it could be.

    I like saying that in jazz 'any chord (as voicing or shape) can be any chord as function (not in classical sense)'


    For example you know you need the sound of Cmaj7 and in this case this is a chord as function...
    And you play Em triad voicing or shape or Am7 voicing or shape or almost whatever... and all that in context if used properly functions as Cmaj7.

    Generally depending on context and your ear jazz harmony can be extremely extended...
    and you can easily play D major triad shape (open one for example) that will function as C major chord - an example I use to get classical guys crazy

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photonic


    The material states that one can move the three string triad to different frets with the root note changing with each move on the neck
    Except that the root notes of those triads aren't the root notes of the actual chords to Green Dolphin Street. I think the author should have made it clear that the actual changes to that tune are:

    CM7 - % - Cm7 - %
    D7 - Db - CM7 - %

    But that he was only putting in the triads without the roots to make his point. That would have solved it for you.

    ----------------------

    Incidentally, you probably know now that actually all those chords are supposed to have a C pedal bass so really it's:

    CM7 - % - Cm7 - %
    D7/C - Db/C - CM7 - %

    So probably C is the root all the time.

    This might be clearer:


  18. #17

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    Of course, it could be argued that the various triads aren't really proper chords at all but just sounds which, over a C bass, produce the chords. So I'd say the C pedal should be included for clarity's sake.

    Well, I know what I mean anyway.

  19. #18

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    Ragman 1,
    Simple question, what would you play if you got such notes on a recording in a studio?

  20. #19

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    I'd just play the notes. Presumably the bass would play the pedal.

  21. #20

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    Good.
    This is the secret of this sheet music.

  22. #21

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    Avoiding the C note in the other chords makes the C pedal stand out more, too.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Good.
    This is the secret of this sheet music.
    But really the point is to understand why you're doing it that way.

  24. #23

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    One would have to ask where this sheet music come from?
    Perhaps it is a guitar part /in the form of a tablature/ taken out of the arrangement.

  25. #24

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    Looks like some kind of instruction material. Of course, we don't know what's on previous pages or the following pages. It's a very clear image so maybe it was online.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, I know what I mean anyway.
    I love this