improvising, surfing and theory

[Groyniad]

what you have to learn in order to improvise is just like what you have to learn to surf

you have to learn how not to fall off

and - also like surfing - this turns out to be a matter of learning how to 'go with it'.

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Now I'm not saying that all the issues about what to play are not crucial (this is all the theory stuff - all the different ways of saying what is happening in the music, and of articulating the discursive issues raised by these differences)

but it has to be seen - all of it - as relevant because its what you need in order to learn how not to fall off.

Actually I think all 'theory' issues, issues about 'what notes when' , should be seen as sort of formal introductions to - in surfing, the sea/the waves - the 'waters', and in music the 'changes' etc. - i.e. the things you have to learn how to 'go along with' in order to learn how not to fall off.

I mean - exactly which way you steer the surfboard, how you actually negotiate the waves with it, that's all groovy - but you don't get to make such cool choices if you can't stay on the damn board for more than a couple of moments at a stretch.

Because the whole point is to learn not to fall off you have to be very honest with yourself - as a jazz surfer - about when you have fallen off and when you haven't.

Regular wave surfers don't really have that particular problem!

and - what you have to do to learn how to improvise is keep on trying to get on the board and then stay on it

(because the introductions theory allows for are so formal they are of very limited value - surfers can talk about currents only so much....- they certainly can't replace actually immersing yourself in the changes and trying to surf them)

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the changes consist in a sort of forward motion which is equivalent to the surfer's wave

[Clint 55]

That's a good point, but to surf at a high level, you have to understand the theory of it also. Think about how to navigate a barrel. You have to stay calm, crouch to fit the barrel, drag your arm or body to stall, or pump to speed up. That's all theory. Or what about how to do a trick like a reverse? You have to weight your front foot as the fins are releasing. Or how do you do an aerial? You have to get speed do a quick bottom turn and time the transition back to your outside rail right as you hit the lip. That's all theory. It's not gonna happen if you don't understand it and just try to 'do it.' Progressing as a musician is learning how to get past theory as only an exercise and see how to make music from it.

Or think about when pro surfers are competing. They know they theoretically have to do several impressive moves on a wave to get a good score even though it has to be improvised to what the wave will allow. What do they do? Cry that theory is hindering them? No, they use their theory knowledge and trick repertoire and apply it to the situation in real time and successfully.

[Groyniad]

I agree - there is some role for theory in surfing - and, I suppose, in any practice.

[Clint 55]

Yeah my opinion is that if theory is holding someone up, it means they haven't put enough work in to be fluent with the idea. Creativity isn't by definition completely isolated from theory. Any decent musician should be able to take a theory idea and be creative and play fluent music with it. Theory isn't an obstacle, it's the opposite if you put in the appropriate amount of work.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t surf but I can imagine it’s similar. Most creative activities are on some level, surfing is a nice thing to compare to music because it’s not necessarily a competitive sport.

Bop can have a feeling of skating over something treacherous or being close to coming off the rails, but that’s usually when I haven’t practiced a tune enough haha. As soon as I get that feeling I will be wiped out. As soon as ‘falling off’ becomes a possibility it becomes an inevitability.

Everyone I think has this happen sometimes. The thing is to pick yourself up and have a good poker face, and not miss a beat….

[pingu]

yes .....It’s very easy to know too much theory..... and not enough practice

I like your surfing analogy

[mr. beaumont]

There's a zen aspect to almost anything that involves great training, concentration, and adaptability.

Though few involve sharks.

[citizenk74]

I know when I am improvising, it's very important not to drown, as I'd prefer not to get CPR from any of the guys I play with.

[Groyniad]

I've been watching people surfing - I've never done it...

there's huge forward push involved in the music - and (moderately successful) playing is a sort of mix between letting yourself be swept 'off your feet' by it and resisting it, digging in, pushing back against it

I see the surfers doing that - pushing against the wave - maybe in order to keep the ride going - or something more surfy I don't understand.

but the main idea is that you have to keep something going - and if you do, it is a total trip - exhilarating/thrilling etc. etc.

and when you do - you feel like you're riding something

and the more theoretical thing I suppose is this: it's a practice, and the only way to learn to participate in a practice, is to try to actually participate in the practice....

Aristotle says that you learn to play the flute by playing the flute - to build by building - to weave by weaving etc. etc. (he's interested in how virtue is acquired, when it is, and he uses these examples as ways in to the discussion).

one wants to respond: I have to be able to play the damn flute already in order to be able to learn how to play it! That's not on the cards mr Aristotle...

and I think this - very natural - reaction can lead one to spend absolutely ages trying to learn how to play music without actually playing music - but, for example - talking about it a lot, or playing things with a musical instrument that aren't music (exercises, scales - though some exercises can be musical....)

grasping or understanding facts about harmony or rhythm is perfectly consistent with not being able to play anything harmoniously or rhythmically

maybe more helpfully: it is not e.g.a matter of knowing where all the notes for Gm11 or Cmaj7sharp11 are - it is a matter of knowing how to use these notes in a certain way to do a certain sort of thing

[princeplanet]

...

Bop can have a feeling of skating over something treacherous or being close to coming off the rails,….

Yeah, that's close to the feeling for me, I love listening to something that feels like the player is standing on top of a roller coaster on one leg and somehow, miraculously, making it to the end without falling off. I get brief glimpses of that feeling with my own playing, enough to make Bop improv insanely addictive ...

[Clint 55]

but the main idea is that you have to keep something going - and if you do, it is a total trip - exhilarating/thrilling etc. etc.

and when you do - you feel like you're riding something

This is true. Same type of zen flow and feeling. Relying on skill that has been partially built naturally.

and the more theoretical thing I suppose is this: it's a practice, and the only way to learn to participate in a practice, is to try to actually participate in the practice....

Aristotle says that you learn to play the flute by playing the flute - to build by building - to weave by weaving etc. etc. (he's interested in how virtue is acquired, when it is, and he uses these examples as ways in to the discussion).

Partially true. You can learn by practicing the act only, but you can learn more effectively by learning the structure of everything as well.

one wants to respond: I have to be able to play the damn flute already in order to be able to learn how to play it! That's not on the cards mr Aristotle...

and I think this - very natural - reaction can lead one to spend absolutely ages trying to learn how to play music without actually playing music - but, for example - talking about it a lot, or playing things with a musical instrument that aren't music (exercises, scales - though some exercises can be musical....)

grasping or understanding facts about harmony or rhythm is perfectly consistent with not being able to play anything harmoniously or rhythmically

maybe more helpfully: it is not e.g.a matter of knowing where all the notes for Gm11 or Cmaj7sharp11 are - it is a matter of knowing how to use these notes in a certain way to do a certain sort of thing

You see the same thing in surfing. I, and many other people can gradually learn how to surf by baseline riding the wave in a natural way. However to progress, you have to break down the mechanics of it.

It isn't the theory getting in the way. If you can't play how you want, by definition you don't have the understanding. To obtain understanding, theory can only help you.

Learning the theory isn't the end goal. You're supposed to apply it. Applying rhythm to a set of notes isn't that monumental of a challenge, it just takes practice. If it sounds bad, either the rhythm is bad or the notes are bad. This can be broken down theoretically, it isn't the enemy.

[John A.]

There's a zen aspect to almost anything that involves great training, concentration, and adaptability.

Though few involve sharks.

Clearly you've never been to the jam at Smalls ...

[Groyniad]

one aspect of the role of letting yourself be swept along (one of the main features of the experience of playing that led me to this surfing analogy) is this:

I find that when I try to plan something - when I have some cool idea that I want to 'get in' in a certain corner of the tune - it makes it hugely likely that I'm going to 'fall off' - that the line is going to lose its direction and purpose in one way or another.

you have to 'try not to try' - I suppose that's what people mean by 'zen'

if I try too hard to direct the line I'm playing it tends to go wrong - if I try to incorporate 'material' into it - it tends to lose its way. When its going well i have the experience of being surprised at what turns up in it, rather than the experience of trying to squeeze something into it - something which might get away from me and refuse to fit.

[Clint 55]

I know what you mean. That's a great feeling when you build off what you play, it's flow and spontaneous, and it propells itself. I think you can practice both approaches - being spontaneous or working material.