The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    I usually play by ear and noodle until the "right" notes start to take over.. I know harm minor scale pretty well but
    it never ever has popped up. Mel.min always. Harm.. hm. even when really trying, it just sounds kinda wrong.

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    What is knowing the modes?

    Well aside from arguing whether it’s Locrian natural 2 or locrian sharp 2, the main thing is application.

    So, for example, knowing that Lydian dominant is mode IV of melodic minor is the same thing as knowing you can sub a dominant chord with a min6 chord with a II V relationship without the terminology. This is what Wes, Django etc etc all understood. It falls out of the basic guitar grips.

    Now what scale you put on that m6? Could be Dorian, could be melodic minor; and you don’t need to know what these scales are called even, plenty of Dorian melodies in the world. Lean on the 6 and it’s old school dominant. Lean on the b7 and you get a sus sound. Lean on the seventh, play that aug triad and you go into Strayhorn territory - you probably learned that sound with A train and Chelsea bridge without knowing what it was called.

    In this way you can play all that melodic minor harmony and never know what a Lydian Dominant is. The books I think are often there to make it seem harder than it is.

    You can also play the m6-dim of course.

    I also reckon this is also why Wes loves to play whole tone on minor; that Aug shape in the m(maj7). Don’t be ashamed to think like a guitar player. Scales make more sense on piano; it is a big scale going left to right, how else are you going to think about it?

    We otoh are shapes guys.
    haha...
    I suggest you watch John Scofield's video 'On Improvisation'/1983/.
    There is the essence itself in 1 hour.
    Also a lot about minor mel modes and chords.

  4. #128

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    Another thing that would be more sensible is if they started the diatonic modes from Lydian and the melodic minor modes from Lydian Augmented, George Russel style OR have modes from Dorian and Melodic Minor ala Allan Holdsworth.

    That way you can make a direct comparison between scales which aids learning and application a little bit (though not completely.)

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Another thing that would be more sensible is if they started the diatonic modes from Lydian and the melodic minor modes from Lydian Augmented, George Russel style OR have modes from Dorian and Melodic Minor ala Allan Holdsworth.

    That way you can make a direct comparison between scales which aids learning and application a little bit (though not completely.)
    Let's not forget Pat Martino.
    He had very advanced thinking on minor scales.

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    haha...
    I suggest you watch John Scofield's video 'On Improvisation'/1983/.
    There is the essence itself in 1 hour.
    Also a lot about minor mel modes and chords.
    Well, sure. But the thing is by framing things the way I have you haven’t actually lost any info; you’ve just lost terminology.

    As you get deeper into it it may well require a more complex understanding, but for actually knowing what you need to know to get started that gives you a lot of it.

    OTOH building arpeggios from the root is also a very good idea - 7, 9, 11, 13; do the basic chord colours and the common ‘melodic minor’ ones.

    The Tristano school had a nice way of managing these extended arpeggios; similar to the sort of thing I described.

    take a dom 7 arp 1 3 5 b7

    Now take a m(maj7) arpeggio - 1 b3 5 7

    Add the second to the first on its 5, b7 and b9; so for instance
    G7 + Dm(maj7) = G B D F A C# = G9#11
    G7 + Fm(maj7) = G B D F Ab C E = G13b9 (natural 11)
    G7 + Ab(maj7) = G B D F Ab B Eb G = G7b9b13

    And then these upper structures could be expanded into melodic minor scales (there’s a bit more to it); also the m(maj)7 sound incorporates the aug triad

    The second structure would be considered a G7sus4b9 choice (‘G Dorian b9’) now I suppose; very common on dominants throughout the bop and swing eras, as well as our friend from the intro of A train.

    This theory was AFIAK developed in the 40s (!) so Strayhorn would have loomed large as well as bop.

    More modern sounds lean more on major and minor triads in the upper structure; things that ‘tonicise’ the US to use Jordan’s language. E/D7, Eb/G7 that type of thing.

  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Let's not forget Pat Martino.
    He had very advanced thinking on minor scales.
    Yeah Pat is a case in point; perhaps the most ‘applied’ or relative thinker of them all. Personally I don’t like minor on major too much, though.

  8. #132

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    Yesterday I tried to analyze H. Hancock's chords...terribly complicated matter.

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    You can add in chords and then play them if you want. Or not. Up to you!

    don’t mistake me for someone who tells people not to do things. I’ll leave that to the Mark Levines of this world lol.

    (mostly)
    No, admittedly I wasn't clear.

    If you see the tones of the Eb7 scale ( namely Db and Ab ) while the chart says Cm do you believe that the soloist is playing a b9 , b13 something or other?

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I think the difference is that, if you think of it as G7 with a #11, your lines are more likely to sound dominant-ish (in a mixolydian sense).

    Melodic minor has its own color/sound mostly characterized by the augmented triad and the leading note. So if you think D melodic minor, IMO you're more likely to find lines that bring out that MM color.

    I see scales in terms of the diatonic chord arpeggios within them. So D melodic minor is D minMaj7, FAug7, C#min7b5 etc. I wouldn't necessarily think to build lines based on these arpeggios if I'm thinking G7 with a #11.
    Right. That's an issue. The trick is to learn them as pools of notes in no particular order.

    So, in this approach, it proceeds (at least in my mind) as follows. You know the chord tones. G B C# F. You know there are some consonant extensions. A and E. You know you're going to be careful about F# since it's a dominant chord. C is the note you raised, so you're probably going to avoid it. That's 8 notes accounted for. The rest are the altered 9ths and the b13. Those are the less consonant extensions.

    So, you have a pool of notes and you make melody using them.

    In the practice room, you just try different combinations of chord tones and the extensions.

    I also think there's real value in thinking about a set of substitute changes while you're playing over the changes the rhythm section is actually using. So, it helps to know substitutions that work. When something catches my ear and I figure it out, that's often what's happening with the line having only a note or two outside the original harmony.

    Usual caveat: I write about the way I do it. I'm well aware that much better players do it differently and that mine seems to be minority view. If I knew how they do it, I might change.

  11. #135

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    In improvisation, not only is chord analysis important, but also phrasing or creating new melodic lines. Remember that it is all connected ... and feel.

  12. #136

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    Is this jazz?

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Is this jazz?
    “Jazz is one of the best things that you can find in your life, it can always be your friend.” – George Gershwin

  14. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    No, admittedly I wasn't clear.

    If you see the tones of the Eb7 scale ( namely Db and Ab ) while the chart says Cm do you believe that the soloist is playing a b9 , b13 something or other?
    Where's it going? How's it resolving?

    Those are highly dissonant notes against Cm, so I would expect that chord to be travelling somewhere.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Where's it going? How's it resolving?

    Those are highly dissonant notes against Cm, so I would expect that chord to be travelling somewhere.
    It's a Cm blues....Cm going to Fm but I'm trying to determine if you see Cm on the chart and Db and Ab in the solo if you define the scale in use as a b9 or a b13 something.

  16. #140

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    one bar before Fm can be C7 and you can play Db and Ab.

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    one bar before Fm can be C7 and you can play Db and Ab.
    Ding, ding, that's it!

    An easy move is to go from playing C Melodic Minor over Cm to C Altered (= Db MM) over C7. Don't forget to resolve.

  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Ok, you're losing me here.

    Do you mean I can't play Eb7 over Cm in a minor blues when on my way to Fm?

    And that I can't play Bb7 over Fm on the way back to Cm?
    I think we're talking about the mental approach.

    If you think that the notes of Eb7 will sound good over Cm, that's an artistic choice.

    But, if you find it helpful to remember some words so that you can find the sound again ...

    Do you think of it as Eb mixo?. C phrygian?

    Or Just an Eb7 scale (same notes) that you're going to overlay on.

    I find it easiest to think about chord names and overlay strategies. So, if I liked the sound of Eb7 over Cm, I'd remember that I can get it by overlaying the 7th chord with the root being the b3 of the minor chord. That would probably get me on the chord tones of Eb7. Since it's an arp, it can have more space between the notes than running a scale.

    Upon reflection, if I thought C phrygian, I'd be more likely to think about all 7 notes and not give any emphasis to the Eb G Bb Db. I learned chord tones first and I know them a little better, so it's path of least resistance. If I was starting from scratch I guess I'd give at least lip service to doing both.

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    one bar before Fm can be C7 and you can play Db and Ab.
    Yes, that's what I'm getting at..and what is two beats before C7?

  20. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I think we're talking about the mental approach.


    So, if I liked the sound of Eb7 over Cm, I'd remember that I can get it by overlaying the 7th chord with the root being the b3 of the minor chord. That would probably get me on the chord tones of Eb7.
    Yes, this is the kind of thought process that I'm trying to get straight, ( or I should say, trying to understand ) expressed mostly by other parties here other than yourself.

    Why are you inventing a "rule" I can use a seventh chord on the b3 of a minor chord?

    How many 'silly-lydian flat 9' scales can you memorize?

    The simple fact is that the movement is G m7b5 to C7 going to Fm and that G m7b5 is Eb9 (no root ) and that has the tones Eb7 INSIDE.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yes, this is the kind of thought process that I'm trying to get straight, ( or I should say, trying to understand ) expressed mostly by other parties here other than yourself.

    Why are you inventing a "rule" I can use a seventh chord on the b3 of a minor chord?

    How many 'silly-lydian flat 9' scales can you memorize?

    The simple fact is that the movement is G m7b5 to C7 going to Fm and that G m7b5 is Eb9 (no root ) and that has the tones Eb7 INSIDE.
    That's a different harmonic situation than the one I addressed. The OP was about playing Eb9 over Cm, or so I understood. My post was about different ways to label that sound, if someone was inclined to do that. I have no opinion on whether there should be rule for that juxtaposition or not.

    For the Gm7b5 to C7 to Fm, I know all the chord tones in those chords and I know the tonal center. I wouldn't bother to think Eb7 because I already know the notes in Gm7b5.

  22. #146

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    When looking at a chord sequence, in this instance Cm7 Fm7, we can choose to emphasize melodic notes that the chords share or differences between them. C Db Eb F G Ab Bb is a darker m7 note collection but it anticipates likely things to come from an F natural minor collection.

    Abma7 Bbm7 Cm7 Dbma7 Eb7 Fm7 Gm7b5

    Cm7 Dbma7 Eb7 Fm7 Gm7b5 Abma7 Bbm7

    Blue Bossa on the other hand, same 2 chords:

    Cm7 ...................Fm7
    G F Eb D C Bb | Ab G F

    Ebma7 Fm7 Gm7 Abma7 Bb7 Cm7 Dm7b5

    Cm7
    Dm7b5 Ebma7 Fm7 Gm7 Abma7 Bb7

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yes, that's what I'm getting at..and what is two beats before C7?
    Gm7b5 C7 I Fm7
    or
    Cm7 Gb7#11I Fm7

  24. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    It's a Cm blues....Cm going to Fm but I'm trying to determine if you see Cm on the chart and Db and Ab in the solo if you define the scale in use as a b9 or a b13 something.
    I think I would just think of the Eb7 as a seperate thing and hang the Cm; as soon as I decide to move, the Cm is over to me. I don’t care if the rhythm section is a still playing it, I’m going to Fm at a time of my choosing (which tbf usually lines up with the rhythm section in arrival if not journey.)

    I’m not thinking about flat this or sharp this over the chord I’ve just left.

    I’d play Eb7 into C7b9 or Gb7 most times; that’s like ii v I stuff. It could be C altered or Db minor or whatever. Or a diminished scale. or anything really

    The important thing is to hear forward into the changes, hearing what’s coming round the pike and making your musical plans, not vertically and reactively all the time. That’s one major thing that makes players sound like they know what they are doing.

    I think jazz manuals give the impression that it’s all about the vertical stuff. Barry had a good exercise for this.

    You can use the standard chord scales for this application.

    But in terms of unity of scale and chord, it’s like I’m adding in a ii V I or V I etc and expressing that as a line. When on a static Cm I might rock backwards and forwards between Cm and G7b9 or something.

    if I see something on a chart like a Im —-> IVm I’ll have my designs and ideas. I’m absolutely not operating chord by chord, note by note, that’s for the practice room. I want to have a sense of the form, flow and maybe some larger scale harmony stuff (tritone subs, A section subs etc) on the gig, and not be micromanaging individual note choices.

    If I see something less familiar I’ll probably play more vertically, but it can suit for those sorts of non functional situations. I’ve seen most if not all of the standard stuff because I know some tunes. You also get better at mentally pruning the surface complexity in a big band chart, say, and recognising the essence of a turnaround, or ii V, or blues, or whatever it is.

    If that answers your question

  25. #149

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    You can also use the so-called outside playing.
    in.ex.on Cm7 you create tensions and solve on Fm7.
    Look at Mccoy Tyner pentatonic stuff.

  26. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    You can also use the so-called outside playing.
    in.ex.on Cm7 you create tensions and solve on Fm7.
    Look at Mccoy Tyner pentatonic stuff.
    Outside playing is the precise same principle; it’s about knowing how to set up and resolve harmonic tension linearly. You have to be able to do this to play jazz. The better you get at it the further you can go.

    Usually when people talk about it it’s in the context of a vamp, but in principle it’s the same thing as a turnaround. And any turnaround can become a vamp and vice versa. It’s decoration and storytelling; you can’t keep a story going without some conflict, reversal and surprises.

    the difference between outside and chord subs where the chord scale can’t work out how it relates vertically to the chord symbols with their theory, so they say ‘it’s outside’. I don’t think the term has that much utility… Is pops ‘outside’ when he plays #ivo7 on IVm6 going to I?

    I think real outside playing is stretching at the limits of this venerable process, seeing what you can get away with. This is possible on a long vamp like Passion Dance etc. Another way of looking at it is that you are writing changes where there are none. Otoh you can strip the changes out of something like rhythm changes.

    (To their credit Nettles and Graf point out that chord scale relationships aren’t always applicable.)

    So a lot changes playing involves outside playing, just look at Django, Parker, Prez etc etc. Steve Coleman’s phrase ‘invisible pathways’ is a nice one.