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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    See the Dm7 as a suspension of G7?I generally would.

    Not hearing Dm7. Is it me?
    Am maybe?

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller

    I see the value of chord functions as more about chord subs and soloing ideas, so I tend to ground my ideas in that. To me there are two or three basic chord qualities and two basic functions, but tbh a lot of harmonic knowledge is gleaned by looking at changes and solos and comparing. I’m a bit suspicious of neat systems because they all become internally inconsistent sooner or later.
    You're starting to sound a bit like Joe Pass. (and that's a good thing)

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Whoa...hold on there bro !

    That D7b5 ( D7#11 ) doesn't resolve up a fourth to G ( something ). It resolves to itself Dm7...or do you see that chord as G9 sus ?

    .....just ask'n friendly like.
    D7#11 is a dominant to G7
    before G7 is Dm7
    Dm7 start 251 Dm7 G7 Cmaj.
    similar is in another tune like Girl From Ipanema.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    You're starting to sound a bit like Joe Pass. (and that's a good thing)
    Oh I totally subscribe to Joe’s way of looking at things. Certainly for straight ahead stuff. It’s major/minor/dominant etc… the practical approach
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-06-2021 at 06:15 AM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Am maybe?
    listened a few times and I hear the D7(#11) going straight to G7(9) on the Duke recording. Bass is hard to hear though, but I think it goes to G in that bar.

    The Dm7 is a later embellishment probably. Wouldn’t surprise me if it was a Real Book thing.

    Tunes get embellIshed a lot. It’s interesting comparing the Coleman Hawkins version of Body and Soul to the real book, so much simpler. Often RB transcribing later versions of tunes but also adding their own stuff in there… even Wayne Shorter tunes are not immune to the plague of the ii V haha.

    To be honest I’ve probably got more out of that type of comparison than theoretical ideas of chord function. Ralph Patts vanilla book lays it all out. Playing earlier styles of jazz is cool too because you end up learning original versions of tunes which deepens your knowledge.

  7. #56

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    I agree. The sound changes slightly (in the first chorus) but the last phrase is more like F to Fm. The others sound more like F6 but playing a G note works too. So it could be a G11 to 7b9 or 13b9.

    But whatever it is it's definitely not an overtly Dm sound.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Agreed, and I hear the Dm7 in your earlier example, Blue in Green as having the same quality. Despite it being written as Bbmaj7#11 in the original RB, the opening chord is basically an extended Gm6 or an Em7b5/G so:

    Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7 - G7/Db7 - Cm7 - F7 - Bbmaj7
    I am quite triggered by the chord symbol Em7b5/G

    Why would someone write that???? Why?????????? Arggggghhhhh my world is fAlLinG ApaRT…..

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I am quite triggered by the chord symbol Em7b5/G

    Why would someone write that???? Why?????????? Arggggghhhhh my world is fAlLinG ApaRT…..
    I saw a Bm/G chord once. The song was in the key of G.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I agree. The sound changes slightly (in the first chorus) but the last phrase is more like F to Fm. The others sound more like F6 but playing a G note works too. So it could be a G11 to 7b9 or 13b9.

    But whatever it is it's definitely not an overtly Dm sound.
    I did not write it, but it is interesting:
    "The term secondary dominant is used to describe a 7th chord that’s not the V7 of
    the key, but the V7 of another chord in the key.
    For example, D7 is the V7 of G. With A Train, you see D7#11 functioning as the V7
    of G7.
    This means that it’s pulling towards G7, but you’re not moving to the key of G.
    Think of secondary dominant chords as a way for composers to highlight a
    diatonic chord without switching keys.
    If secondary dominant chords are a bit fuzzy at this point, not to worry.
    Work on playing them in your comping and soloing workout, then with time the
    theory will become clearer.
    Remember, you don’t have to understand the theory behind a concept to use it in
    your playing."
    Last edited by kris; 12-06-2021 at 11:08 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    So, chord functions are a thing.

    How do people find them useful and what actually are they when you get down to it?

    (I’m not asking for advice on how to do functional analysis I know how this works, I’m more interested in what people think they may have got out of the concept.)
    By "chord function" do you mean using Roman numerals instead of chord names, e.g., writing the different sections of Autumn Leaves as ii V I IV (of major key) and ii V i (of relative minor) rather than using explicit chord names? I find that useful for figuring what's going on in a tune. For instance, knowing that AL is moving back and forth between a relative major and minor key, I know how to bring out each of those tonalities, and I know I can sub a parallel dom7 chord for the i minor chord as a way to get back to the relative major. Or, seeing that a progression with a whole bunch of chords can be reduced to just ii V I or even V I helps me to understand that I don't necessarily have to "chase" all the intervening chords (cf "Freight Trane" this week). I also find it helpful for transposing -- for me it's easier to see Autumn Leaves as a series of ii V I's a new key (and it's relative minor) than it is for me to offset every chord by the interval between the two signatures, at least for tunes that easily lend themselves to Roman-numeralization. Maybe because I started out playing blues before getting into jazz I tend to see tunes this way by default (to a fault ...).

    But it seems like maybe your using it in a less obvious sense than this, in which case I guess I'd ask you to explain that a bit more (with some trepidation, since asking you to explain something generally results in your explaining something).

  12. #61

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    John -

    The word 'function' just means use or purpose, etc. It can be used in several ways music-wise. There's no one way, hence the confusion, and not just yours.

    There's the function of a chord within a progression - like the ii before a V, or the V before a I.

    There's the function of a cadence - like a deceptive cadence.

    There's the function of chords that either resolve or do not resolve, etc, etc.

    When someone asks 'What does chord X mean?' most of us say 'depends on the context' - in other words what function/use/purpose that particular chord has in that piece of music.

    Etc, etc. So you can interpret the word how you like, providing it makes sense, obviously.

  13. #62

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    So I guess the big question becomes...does calling the second chord in A Train a V or V, secondary dominant inform what you play when you get to that chord? Or rather, more than the notes in the chord itself and the melody?

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So I guess the big question becomes...does calling the second chord in A Train a V or V, secondary dominant inform what you play when you get to that chord? Or rather, more than the notes in the chord itself and the melody?
    D7#11 informs you which scales to use for improvisation/for example :A minor melodic or D wholetone/
    This chord does not try to resolve on G Maj7-it only connects as if to the G7.
    The G7 is aiming for a resolution on C May7.Therefore I can apply alterations / for ex.Ab min melodic / to G7.

    The composer composed a piece with a G # note and it matches D7 # 11 using a secondary dominant technique.
    Great standard.
    Last edited by kris; 12-06-2021 at 04:38 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So I guess the big question becomes...does calling the second chord in A Train a V or V, secondary dominant inform what you play when you get to that chord? Or rather, more than the notes in the chord itself and the melody?
    Notes and melody.

    I don't know what others would say but the theoretical explanation of why Ellington used a b5 there, etc, etc, is irrelevant. The fact is that's the chord and the G# note. I don't care what 'theoretical function ' it might have, I just play it because that's the tune.

    Which is what I said before - just play 'em. I can analyse everything till doomsday but in the end I have to play that chord so it sounds good. And it has to sound good whatever the next chord is too.

    (I'm not saying I shouldn't know it's a secondary dominant and all that, I should, but it won't make much difference to the soloing, will it? I've still got to play it)

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So I guess the big question becomes...does calling the second chord in A Train a V or V, secondary dominant inform what you play when you get to that chord? Or rather, more than the notes in the chord itself and the melody?

    The tune is in C and the chord is a D7#11.

    I know that D7#11 has an F# and that the melody is a G#, so I'm going to have to adjust those two notes. That gives me C D E F# G# A B.

    That's understandable as A melmin or D13#11, although I probably wouldn't think about it that way. For me, it's tonal center and adjustments.

    The foregoing is about it for me as far as something useful. But I won't stop there anyway.

    I played this tune for 30 years before I'd ever heard the term "secondary dominant". The only potentially useful thing that led to was the idea that you play lydian dominant on secondary dominants and alt on the main dominant. I say "potentially" because I'd already arrived at that by thinking about tonal center and adjustments.

    So, for a classically functional tune (if I understand the term) like Anybody Seen My Gal in Cmajor, I'm going to play E7 by adjusting the C scale to account for the G#. I have to make a decision about F vs F#, and C vs C# but I'll do that by ear; do I want an E13 sound or an E7b9b13 sound? For the A7, I'm going to raise the C to C#. For D7, I raise the F. Similar considerations about the other notes.

    What about the G7? I can play straight tonal center, which makes it Gmixo, not that I'd think that on the bandstand. I also know that the V7 can take altered 5th and 9ths. There's a decision to be made about how to use the 4th and 6th. Whichever notes I decide to play, there's a good chance that there's a scale name for them, but, to me, it's mostly about altering the 5th and 9th, or leaving them alone.

    So, I'm making a distinction between the V7 and the secondary dominants. I don't have to. I could just go with tonal center and adjustments (not needed on V7). But, G mixo is going to sound too vanilla to me, so I'm going to want to embellish. And, I guess that means I'm paying attention to function.

    Similarly, when I use Warren Nunes' substitutions, I'm working within one of Warren's two functions. To quote him, "there are two types of chords, type I and type II". Type I included the Imaj iiim Vmaj7 vim. Type II were the iim IVmaj V7 and vim. Not a typo, vim is in both types.

    In that sense, I guess I'm using the notion of function. But, I didn't learn it in that way. Maybe it would have been better if I did?



    .
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-06-2021 at 06:23 PM.

  17. #66

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    I should really stay out of this, but...
    I like rags' point about "function" having multiple meanings, depending on context.
    My introduction to function was: I likes to lead to IV. IV like to lead to V ....why ? ..you can't just tell me that. So I look at it and see semi tone movement. Is this supposed to be a clue for some meaning of function ? ..would I ever say I functions as dominant to IV ? ....picture me in a field counting butterflies...

    I've been working over the Joe Pass vid someone posted,in one of his blues examples (in G) : G7, C9, B7#9, E7 ..I'm finding lines in G melodic, starting on the C9 and ending with G# dim over the E7. There's no B dominant in G melodic minor, but the damned things sound good leading into the G# dim. The function here seems to be "get some chromatic movement in the harmony" ... Is there really more meaning I need beyond that ?? ..honest question, I do have much too learn.

    -best,
    Mike

  18. #67

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    The Dominant Cycle-next topic for discussion.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I did not write it, but it is interesting:
    "The term secondary dominant is used to describe a 7th chord that’s not the V7 of
    the key, but the V7 of another chord in the key.

    This is correct but you shouldn't assign every 7th chord found on the fifth of another as a 'secondary dominant'
    and this D7 of ' Take the A Train ' is a good example of why.


    For example, D7 is the V7 of G. With A Train, you see D7#11 functioning as the V7
    of G7.

    This is a bad example to use to describe secondary dominant chords.
    This chord is not functioning as the VI7 of 'Indiana', it is functioning more like the II7 in ' Frim Fram Sauce ' .
    Both these chords are birds of another feather.


    This means that it’s pulling towards G7, but you’re not moving to the key of G.

    In ' Frim Fram Sauce ' we move to the subdominant after the II7, so although the secondary chord has tri-tones that want to resolve, they are not always going up a fourth.

    Think of secondary dominant chords as a way for composers to highlight a
    diatonic chord without switching keys.
    If secondary dominant chords are a bit fuzzy at this point, not to worry.
    Work on playing them in your comping and soloing workout, then with time the
    theory will become clearer.
    Remember, you don’t have to understand the theory behind a concept to use it in
    your playing."
    You should be glad your not the author.

  20. #69

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    "a harmonic function describes the role that a particular chord plays in the creating of a larger harmonic progression. Each chord tends to occur in some musical situations more than others, to progress to some chords more than others. These tendencies work together to create meaningful harmonic progressions, which can in turn form the harmonic foundation for musical phrases, themes, and larger formal units"

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    You should be glad your not the author.
    Something is wrong here, my original post was like this # 59:

    I did not write it, but it is interesting:
    "The term secondary dominant is used to describe a 7th chord that’s not the V7 of
    the key, but the V7 of another chord in the key.
    For example, D7 is the V7 of G. With A Train, you see D7#11 functioning as the V7
    of G7.
    This means that it’s pulling towards G7, but you’re not moving to the key of G.
    Think of secondary dominant chords as a way for composers to highlight a
    diatonic chord without switching keys.
    If secondary dominant chords are a bit fuzzy at this point, not to worry.
    Work on playing them in your comping and soloing workout, then with time the
    theory will become clearer.
    Remember, you don’t have to understand the theory behind a concept to use it in
    your playing."

  22. #71

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    Here is the full text from which I quoted an excerpt: Anatomy of a Tune - Take the A Train:

    https://cdn.fs.teachablecdn.com/4Ht2nbBTM2iKnKjp6nUq

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Something is wrong here, my original post was like this # 59:
    I apologize if I threw you with that. I didn't mean to have it look like a mis-quote.

    I put my comments INSIDE your quote as if to be speaking to the original author.

    I should have said I was doing so in my post.

    Thanks for the links. I appreciate knowing the source of what, IMHO, I believe is weak musical theory.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    D7#11 informs you which scales to use for improvisation/for example :A minor melodic or D wholetone/
    This chord does not try to resolve on G Maj7-it only connects as if to the G7.
    The G7 is aiming for a resolution on C May7.Therefore I can apply alterations / for ex.Ab min melodic / to G7.

    The composer composed a piece with a G # note and it matches D7 # 11 using a secondary dominant technique.
    Great standard.
    Like so much of Strayhorn's harmony I hear this whole tune as a study in augmented triads.

    If you have a listen to the backing figures on the head they outline the augmented triad starting on D (the ninth) and descending through the triad. So what you get is a composite C+/D7 which might be written as D9#11. This chord is common in all the Strayhorn stuff I've looked at so far. It's a basic aspect of his style. The shout chorus has a chromatic run down to the #11 on II7 in what sounds parellel augmented triads (correct me if I'm wrong); pretty cool! I think Stevie wonder also uses this trick (of course Stevie has a penchant for this tonality too.)

    The intro uses a E+ triad on a G bass, giving a composite G7sus4b9 tonality. This is not a sound the completely belongs to the whole tone scale, as the G is not found in the E whole tone scale.

    TBF this stuff is also prevalent in bop, I presume they took it from Strayhorn?

    Both of these sounds would be today brought under the umbrella of melodic minor harmony. This is what I (and Mark Levine IIRC) would categorise as the basic use of melodic minor harmony, and it's most prevalent in the 40s and 50s, and is probably a good entry point for a musician wanting to master these sounds. What I notice is that the aug triad has more of that old school sound as an upper structure rather than major or minor upper structure triads modern players might use. To my ears this gives the upper structure less of a prominent quality. Playing, for instance, E/D7 has a totally different effect.

    When the Duke improvises on the A of the A Train he seems to use the D whole tone scale (sorry the link I wanted to post seems to be broken, which is to part because it's basically the cultural high water mark of the 20th century, but anyway). Strayhorn himself leans more towards what we could call the 'melodic minor' (he actually uses a a hybrid dorian/melodic minor scale) on Chelsea Bridge.

  25. #74

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    Also, the #11 sound.... old school functional harmony has plenty of 'bVI7#11' (French Sixth chords) in it. While jazzers might regard the bVI7 chord as a tritone sub for II7, this is not how it is understood in trad music theory.

    Old school jazz, the #11 is often added to the IV7 and bVI7 by default; a good example of the former is Limehouse Blues and the latter is Out of Nowhere, both popular pre war standards.

    A question I would ask is; was A Train the first tune to do this on II7? I can't think of a counter example off the top of my head. Anyone?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    John -

    The word 'function' just means use or purpose, etc. It can be used in several ways music-wise. There's no one way, hence the confusion, and not just yours.

    There's the function of a chord within a progression - like the ii before a V, or the V before a I.

    There's the function of a cadence - like a deceptive cadence.

    There's the function of chords that either resolve or do not resolve, etc, etc.

    When someone asks 'What does chord X mean?' most of us say 'depends on the context' - in other words what function/use/purpose that particular chord has in that piece of music.

    Etc, etc. So you can interpret the word how you like, providing it makes sense, obviously.
    Rags, I know what the word "function" means and that it has many senses (musical and otherwise). I'm asking Christian what sense he was using because it wasn't clear to me from his question, and I'm trying to answer his question. On account of he awaits my every utterance with 'bated breath, and I don't want to let him down.