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  1. #1

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    scale outlining warm up
    Attached Images Attached Images Scale outlines on "All Of Me"-all-me-outline-png 
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:35 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    What chord scales are you using? Doesn't look like Mixo and Dorian in a few cases.

  4. #3
    E7, G7, Bb7, Db7 are in the same "family" of Dominant 7th b9 chords. G7/E7 conveniently gives us a flat 9 scale plus two other altered notes. We should know a lot of stuff to do with G7, it's a very familiar scale shape … and maybe more familiar than the shape of E7 think "E F G G# A B C D"... which is perhaps a mode from the A harmonic minor with an added G note (Personally, I don't like thinking or playing it that way). Thanks to Barry Harris
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:36 AM.

  5. #4

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    Would you mind taking that one chord at a time please? I’m not familiar with a “flat 9 scale”.

    More specifically, what do you call the chord scales on E7 and A7?

    Thanks!

  6. #5
    (as labeled in the OP example).
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  7. #6

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    But why?

  8. #7
    It's how not why.
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  9. #8

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    Adam Maness spells this out at the beginning to this lesson on the head to Donna Lee:



    He calls it the "secret dominant scale", even though it's not a secret. It's similar to what BH was doing on secondary dominants:

    For example, over E7, take the A harmonic minor scale (think of the E7 as going to Amin, even if it goes to AMaj or Adom etc...)

    A HM: A B C D E F G# A

    Think of it over E7 and add the #9 (Gnat) to fix that awkward augmented second:

    E F Gnat G# A B C D E

    Instant bebop!

    (Of course there are lots of things you can do over a secondary dominant. This is one!)
    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 10-15-2021 at 05:44 PM.

  10. #9

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    I never got that BH family of dominants a minor 3rd away from each other thing (if I'm paraphrasing correctly). More explanation would be welcomed.
    Last edited by Clint 55; 10-15-2021 at 04:55 PM.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    What chord scales are you using? Doesn't look like Mixo and Dorian in a few cases.
    Those scales over the dominant chords are just phrygian dominant (which I don't care to use often) with the exception of lydian dominant over the D7. The scales over the C major and minor chords are just diatonic so they would be major over C, dorian over D-, and aeolian over A-.

  12. #11

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    OK, I was just looking for the lazy crutch of an altered chord symbol. My bad.

    Thanks.

  13. #12
    I like how bebop jazz pianist Barry Harris adds an extra note and describes his use as "on C7, play down from the 7th of Eb7 to E the 3rd" and especially over G-7b5 to C7b9.


    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:24 AM.

  14. #13

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    What's written in your example, E,F,G#,A,B,C,D, is phrygian dominant. What are the scale degrees in the article? I'm not reading that thing. Is it just an uppity way of saying use harmonic minor over a minor 2-5?
    Last edited by Clint 55; 10-15-2021 at 07:43 PM.

  15. #14
    To be fair there is an added note making it unique. Personally, I never play harmonic minor.
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-16-2021 at 02:26 AM.

  16. #15
    I think Barry Harris gave it good thought and wasn't just trying to be outside the box. I think he cast those 8 notes (down from the 7th to the 3rd) and chose to teach them as an ideal way.
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-15-2021 at 10:21 PM.

  17. #16

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    So it's phrygian with a major 3rd added. Sounds pretty elegant on a dominant chord. I'm gonna try to start using that and mix b6.
    Last edited by Clint 55; 10-15-2021 at 10:15 PM.

  18. #17

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    I'm not sure how helpful this is, but here's another way to think about it.

    Think of the tonal center as C throughout.

    For Cmaj7 you select notes from the Cmajor scale.

    For E7, you adjust as little as possible. That's raising G to G#. (You can put in the Gnat, but maybe it should be an octave up from the chord).

    for A7, you adjust as little as possible. That means you have to raise C to C#. You could stop there, but you might like F# and Bb. You have to use your ear.

    For D7, you adjust as little as possible. That's F raised to F#.

    Of course, a great player can make any note sound good.

    My point in this post is that you can think tonal center and chord tones. That gets you that G# against the E7 (and the others noted above). If you find it easier to think fifth mode A harmonic minor or E phrygian dominant, you can certainly do that. I think you'll be in good company either way.

  19. #18
    Another way of treating the E7 in bar 3 is without a flat 9, but with a flat 5, so if you going to think of it in scale terms, it would be E F# G# A# B C# D. But that flat 5 has got to resolve always eg G# A A# C# B. I prefer that sound for these older show tunes as it brings out that lovely key shift from C to A (E7) and lifts the solo IMHO.

  20. #19

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    Interestingly some soloists on old recordings I checked out treat each dominant as a dominant/mixolydian. This is a sound that comes up a lot all over (Charlie Christian is an obvious example but all sorts of people do it) even though it’s not taking the most obvious ‘inside/diatonic’ approach. It’s a sound I should probably get into more…

    Certainly playing b9 on a secondary dominant is a big Parker vibe… but not everyone does this all the time - not even Parker!

    it’s a bit like - what’s the ii chord in a minor 2 5 1? We learn it’s half diminished, but actually it’s very often m7.

    Parker often likes the A mixo sound in Dm for instance; second bar of Blues for Alice for instance. It then allows him to use b9 for a voice leading. Not what you’d expect from the textbooks, but it’s in some of the most obvious repertoire…

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    To be fair there is an added note making it unique. Personally, I never play harmonic minor.
    Yeah, reminds me. Barry said in class last year that you should leave off playing harmonic minor in that situation, or rather avoid getting stuck in it; keep on the dominant for as long as possible, which makes sense as we boppers know lots of things to play on dominant chords but so much on minor key dominants (7b9b13nat5s). It still sounds like a minor ii V I that’s the interesting thing, even without that third on the V7. Often cooler not to play V7 of course… or focus on the less functional notes at least (don’t play the butter notes?)

    It seems in lines that people flip between the top, play G7 and add in the G# where they want, for instance. Which creates the mythical ‘#9’ on doms…. Add in the very beboppy ‘Neapolitan’ b5 sound and you get that most hybrid of animals, the altered scale.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    I never got that BH family of dominants a minor 3rd away from each other thing (if I'm paraphrasing correctly). More explanation would be welcomed.
    Minor ii V = backdoor

    (at least that’s what’s going on here)

    Running the scale down to the third of the dominant is nice, but not necessary. The main rule of thumb is that it’s G7 on Bm7b5 E7 going to A for example.

    Heres a vid if it helps

  23. #22

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    I thought the BH thing was more than 1 chord sub, saying 3 groups of 4 dominant chords a minor 3rd away from each other are related. Like some sort of diminished thing.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    I thought the BH thing was more than 1 chord sub, saying 3 groups of 4 dominant chords a minor 3rd away from each other are related. Like some sort of diminished thing.
    Brothers and sisters

    Well your main choices are basically (going to C) G7, Bb7 and Db7 - E7 is much more unusual and generally used for going to relative minor (as in Blues for Alice)

    But when mapping scales for tunes we take advantage of the fact that m7b5 is related to 8th chord and therefore dominant, eg Em7b5 = C9. If you learn a ton of stuff on dominant it makes sense to play it everywhere you can.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Brothers and sisters

    Well your main choices are basically (going to C) G7, Bb7 and Db7 - E7 is much more unusual and generally used for going to relative minor (as in Blues for Alice)

    But when mapping scales for tunes we take advantage of the fact that m7b5 is related to 8th chord and therefore dominant, eg Em7b5 = C9. If you learn a ton of stuff on dominant it makes sense to play it everywhere you can.
    Em7b5 has the notes of a rootless C9.

    To my ear, that C makes a difference. When I'm playing a tune like Alone Together, the C doesn't sound so good over the Em7b5.

    So, I'd adjust that equal sign. A wavy equal sign means, as I understand it, "close, not necessarily exact".

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
    Another way of treating the E7 in bar 3 is without a flat 9, but with a flat 5, so if you going to think of it in scale terms, it would be E F# G# A# B C# D. But that flat 5 has got to resolve always eg G# A A# C# B. I prefer that sound for these older show tunes as it brings out that lovely key shift from C to A (E7) and lifts the solo IMHO.
    That's the lydian dominant (the fourth mode of melodic minor). It can be an option on secondary dominants.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    Think of the tonal center as C throughout.

    For D7, you adjust as little as possible. That's F raised to F#.

    What I mentioned above -- you may also raise the G to G#, ie, take the A train.