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Originally Posted by joelf
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09-11-2021 09:26 PM
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I never understood how Chuck did it.
I remember part of a chord melody that came to me, iirc, from Chuck via Carl.
It was Fly Me To The Moon (aka In Other Words). First chord is Am7 with a C in the soprano. Next chord is Aminmaj9 (second chord, Stairway to Heaven) and the next two are Am7 xx5555 and Am7 x7758x. Next is Dm7 etc.
So, to take a simple case, what did he do for the first two chords? Am7 to Aminmaj9. If you don't include the G# over the second one, it's going to sound like you're playing Am7 (you can play something else, but then it won't be the first two chords of your chord melody). It lasts a eighth note or maybe a quarter, depending on how you phrase it, at medium swing tempo. You don't have time to play very many notes over the Aminmaj7. So, is that what Chuck did? Seems like boxing himself in pretty tightly, given that he had a new chord for every melody note. You can get stuck, I imagine, with a guide tone line and elaboration. "Stuck" is probably a poor choice of words. He sounded awesome. I'd guess that he made melody and in doing so made an effort to outline his reharm.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 09-11-2021 at 10:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by joelf
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I like this approach. You are hanging the improvisation off the melody not the chords and that’s going to help everything sound connected.
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Yea in a perfect world... we don't need to think or worry about skills, performance, musical organization or anything... (at least for some of you).
I generally am playing guitar at gigs... I have played trombone for years and when I was younger, in Big bands and junk bands, and sure maybe I didn't really need to think as much, a melody can stand by it's self or work with almost any rehams of typical jazz playing of tunes.
But when your performing on a instrument that for the most part... is playing and performing... HARMONY, you need to either have your shit together, which most guitarist don't seem to want to do or just don't want to show it in their playing. Disclaimer... no one on this sight... in general.
Why do guitarist try to avoid what their instrument is designed to do. Do we like to think we're melodically divine. And that if our playing and performance is not controlled by some heavenly process... (anything but ourselves)... it's not worthy.
I posted like a over 10 years ago on this forum.... play a solo and record it....then try and arrange or play chords to every note. (I did this as a Kid). Most will be shocked. But that's not really the point, the point is you'll become aware of what Notes imply or can imply. And then you'll begin to see and be able to hear possible musical organization. Beyond just rehearsing and performing what you've trained yourself to play...
And yes... getting to the point where you can spell all the changes is what most seem to want to be able to do... but that's the beginning, like learning arps, scales and what the notes of those arps and scales are.... in context... of Harmony. That's part of where we start... basic mechanics, then you begin to develop understandings of how chords work together, just like basic contrapuntal musical organizations.... Eventually you play what you feel or want, because you know and understand what those feelings are and what you want and where they come and what creates those feelings in different contexts. (tunes and styles).
Brooklyn... still have family there and around.
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09-12-2021, 03:31 PM #107joelf Guest
That's a good way to put it, Reg. Thanks...
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09-12-2021, 03:34 PM #108joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Christian Miller
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Is it acceptable to have no thought processes when soloing? Asking for a friend.
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Originally Posted by Clint 55
If you tweak a note or two and add some chromatics to taste over Db7, F blues sounds great to me there but the real challenge is the Dm (is that really a Dm?) because some (actually, almost all!) notes are going to clash - or maybe that's a good thing here? The "safe" option is of course to switch to D dorian or maybe Am penta, but that doesn't work for me personally.
Anyway, Rich Severson appears to have similar ears on this, as I discovered recently* ... and I'm still trying to figure out what Herbie is playing over the "Dm" in his performances. It certainly ain't D dorian. (*I refer to the treatment of the Dm in his Cantalope Island Lesson Demos YT vid (2014), where he actually plays a D7#9. Guy's got a great feel).
So yeah, curiously, sometimes you maybe should "play just one scale"Last edited by Peter C; 09-12-2021 at 07:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
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I keep thinking about one sentence of all-purpose soloing instruction.
Play the chromatic scale and leave out the notes that don't sound good.
Or, stated another way.
Leave out the notes that don't sound good.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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What me worry? Was that Alfreds quip?
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I am still rearranging arps.keeping it related to the melody.I never get board because my emotional state changes and so does the tune.
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I 'm thinking about next gig.
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Originally Posted by EarlBrother
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I asked this question to the guys on open studio and then they came up with this lesson which was pretty much a relevant response. Pretty cool lesson on how to play shapes to have something easy to play and have it fit plus achieve a mod sound.
Last edited by Clint 55; 10-06-2021 at 12:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Hi, there OP.
Intuition only helps when you got the basic or you're John Lennon. Everything that is good in our perception has some mechanism to it. If you paint good, sing good, improvise good, etc that means it's not magically good for some part. The problem with the jargon "use your ears" is that it doesn't apply for everyone.
I practice with my ears. But that is after I know what key I'm in, where I'm gonna target the next chord tone, etc. See? That's just a quite few example. But what exactly do you mean by playing over changes here? Are we talking about memorizing the chord tones, modes, etc? or are we talking about improvisation?
In the end; the scale/modes, licks, chord tones, arpeggios, etc. are only tool for improvisation, and improvisation is just another term for spontaneous composition. That being said, there's a lot of compositional technique one need to consider before (S)He can successfully improvise. The tool we use in my own term is only a fretboard knowledge, in that it only tackles the spontaneous part in the improvisation.
The way you explain that "you start by trying to outline each change. If you lose sight of that, you'll have in your head as a backup, the general key of the song or section that you can use to make notes fit" is similar to the way a juggler is handling his/her stuff. It's not wrong, but why do you have to outline things? What about leaving out some space? If this is about fretboard knowledge; it's no difference than any chord-tones, arpeggios, mode drills. But it's a whole different game if you try to improvise.
In this video I play an improvisation. If you want to dig more about improvisation you can click the link in the video's description box.
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Originally Posted by EJGuitar
Good job on your clip. That's the craziest mix I've heard lol! The tracking is extremely natural sounding. I usually don't hear that. And the levels and panning are crazy too. Drums and bass sound really accurate and the guitar sounds kind of nasal. Are you on middle position? Also the bass is the loudest instrument! It's usually the quietest. Sounds pretty cool.
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Originally Posted by Clint 55
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For me, when I'm playing well my thought process resembles "beep, ba-do be be bop ba-dee bop." I'm singing through the guitar. This can go on for two or three seconds on end.
Then consciousness gets in the way. And then self-consciousness gets in the way. And then it all goes to heck in a handbasket halfway through the chorus. I'm stuck thinking "E-7, D7, Gmaj7, G-7, C7, Fmaj7…"
After 42 years of trying to play this stuff, you'd think I'd have gotten better by now.
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"For me, when I'm playing well my thought process resembles "beep, ba-do be be bop ba-dee bop."
I agree, I'm firstly hearing my rhythmic phrasing.
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I often feel people don't understand the role intuition plays in music.
Nothing about playing an instrument is inherently intuitive whether it's for Pat Methney, John Lennon or Joe Bloggs on JGO. We may find playing a G chord intuitive but it's only because we internalised the physical aspect of playing G early on. For a beginner it requires a lot of thought.
I find playing over ii-V-I's intuitive to the point where it requires little or no thought, so if I'm playing those progressions the truth is I don't think much at all. But I have spent A LOT of time practicing those things. For something less usual I might need to do some practice, but if I'm still thinking when I have to play that progression on stage, its not going to go well.
So theory is kind of - well it's at best a recipe for a cake. But you have to bake the cake.
Most people who are frustrated with their playing are simply thinking too much and haven't internalised things yet. Obviously practice time is limited, so it's a matter of knowing what to practice and focusing on that. You can do worse than blocking everything down to II-V's; has worked for a lot of players over the years.
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