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  1. #1

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    I have always thought of the chord xx7898 as rootless B13b9.
    Watching Jimmy Bruno on ATTYA (song in key of Ab) at bars 17, 18 and 19 he plays (in a chord melody version)
    one bar of xx7 8 8 10
    one bar of xx7898
    and one of xx5777.
    Its a II V I in G
    So the V could be looked at as a rootless D7b9#11 with both the 5th and the b5 (#11), or the tritone Ab7b9 (with b9 in the bass and no 7th).
    I guess this is a common application but new to me.
    Any other ways of looking at it?
    Cheers

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  3. #2

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    It should be taken in context. If, as you say, it's a ii-V-I in G, then it's a question of working out the notes' relationships to G.

    So the Am chord could be an Am11b5 and the D7 could be a rootless 7b9#11, as you suggest.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    I have always thought of the chord xx7898 as rootless B13b9.
    Watching Jimmy Bruno on ATTYA (song in key of Ab) at bars 17, 18 and 19 he plays (in a chord melody version)
    one bar of xx7 8 8 10
    one bar of xx7898
    and one of xx5777.
    Its a II V I in G
    So the V could be looked at as a rootless D7b9#11 with both the 5th and the b5 (#11), or the tritone Ab7b9 (with b9 in the bass and no 7th).
    I guess this is a common application but new to me.
    Any other ways of looking at it?
    Cheers
    Bruno DGAF

    That’s not a chord spelling btw. He would, if able, flush your head down the toilet for uttering the term ‘diminished scale’.

    Because he doesn’t like your head. He doesn’t like my head either.

    Anyway because I am a girly swot and a ghastly wet and a weed, I would say diminished symmetry. As any fule no.

    In my capacity as a supposed musician, I would say, look closely at the voice leading and the top line.

  5. #4

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    You can think of it as a diminished chord with one borrowed note on the second string. If you simplify the voicing to be a straight C diminished it makes total sense in a II-V-I progression.
    Altering the F# note up a whole step to G# is a little more modern sounding but falls into the category of the diminished scale passing notes.
    Using diminished Harmony B7 = D7 = F7 = Ab7 so what you recognize as a B13b9 can also work as any of these other dominant chords.
    Now you can pat yourself on the back for finding a cool new use for a shape you already knew.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    You can think of it as a diminished chord with one borrowed note on the second string. If you simplify the voicing to be a straight C diminished it makes total sense in a II-V-I progression.
    Altering the F# note up a whole step to G# is a little more modern sounding but falls into the category of the diminished scale passing notes.
    Using diminished Harmony B7 = D7 = F7 = Ab7 so what you recognize as a B13b9 can also work as any of these other dominant chords.
    Now you can pat yourself on the back for finding a cool new use for a shape you already knew.
    Now you mention it, I realise I have come across the borrowed note idea when dipping my toes in the BH concepts.
    And, ofcourse the Cdim chord can be seen as a rootless D7b9 ie the V.
    Thank you for your fine explanation.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy View Post
    I have always thought of the chord xx7898 as rootless B13b9.
    Watching Jimmy Bruno on ATTYA (song in key of Ab) at bars 17, 18 and 19 he plays (in a chord melody version)
    one bar of xx7 8 8 10
    one bar of xx7898
    and one of xx5777.
    Its a II V I in G
    So the V could be looked at as a rootless D7b9#11 with both the 5th and the b5 (#11), or the tritone Ab7b9 (with b9 in the bass and no 7th).
    I guess this is a common application but new to me.
    Any other ways of looking at it?
    Cheers
    I'm happy to read that you may inquire further into BH hamonic method to help uncover the seeming mystery(s) here.

    What you're looking for are answers to: why this voicing can be chosen, why does it work in this particular case and most importantly...how was it ' BUILT ' ?

    The second you voiced xx78 you brought the tri-tones of F7 ( rootless ) into play and that is the ' back door ' to G major scale, so that explains the V movement of the voicing.

    Barry's teaching states that there is a minor 6 on the 5th of seventh chords among other things ( this chord spells it's ' parent ' seventh chord with a 9 and rootless )
    That would mean that a C minor 6 ' lives ' on the 5 of F7.

    As guitarists we use an inversion of this all the time.... xx7888.

    In Barry Harris Harmonic theory, a scale of chords created using C minor 6 and B dim 7, would put a diminished 7 chord right between the root chord
    xx10 12 10 11 and a third inversion xx7888.

    In the voicing stated above, an alto voice was ' borrowed ' from that diminished chord replacing the alto voice of the original inversion.

    xx78 suggests the major third and minor seven of F7 without a root and xxxxx8 would be the 5 of F7 so I'd read that voicing as F7#9.

    I do like and use this type of voicing often, inverting it down by minor thirds...

    3x443x
    x5666x
    5x555x
    x3444x

    ...is a nice ' Blue Moon ' turn !

  8. #7

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    Wilson..

    do like and use this type of voicing often, inverting it down by minor thirds...

    3x443x
    x5666x
    5x555x
    x3444x

    these tasty voicings open many harmonic doors..from a ted greene/ben monder viewpoint the very vanilla GM7 could be Bb13b9#5..and then the never ending "what if.."

    thanks for your insights...

  9. #8

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    one bar of x x 7 8 8 10
    one bar of x x 7 8 9 8
    and one of x x 5 7 7 7


    Playing jazz on the Strat encourages me to find and use voicing higher up the neck for three reasons; my roller nut limits how fat a string I can use, playing higher sounds darker, and the closer frets are easier to play. An additional incidental advantage is specific fingerings are often easier, as is in this case. So the same chords up high are:


    one bar of x 12 13 12 15 x
    one bar of x 12 13 13 13 x
    and one of x 10 12 11 12 x


    As a II V I in G
    Play D under the second chord
    one bar of x 12 13 12 15 x
    one bar of 10 12 13 13 13 x (or 10 x 10 8 9 8)
    and one of x 10 12 11 12 x


    As a bVII V I in G
    Play F under the first chord
    one bar of 13 12 13 12 15 x (or 8 7 8 8 10)
    one bar of x 12 13 13 13 x
    and one of x 10 12 11 12 x



    As a IV V I in G
    Play C under the first chord
    one bar of 8 x 7 8 8 10 (or x 15 13 12 15 x)
    one bar of x 12 13 13 13 x
    and one of x 10 12 11 12 x



    As a bVI V I in G
    Play Eb under the first chord
    one bar of x 6 7 8 8 10 (or 11 x 13 12 15 x or 11 12 13 12 x x)
    one bar of x 12 13 13 13 x
    and one of x 10 12 11 12 x



    The sound of the second chord allows for considerable variation in approach perspective of the first chord. The three additional examples I wrote above are pretty vanilla changes. There are more that proceed increasingly "outside" and approach the harmonic limits of what first chords the second chord can musically pass to the third chord, depending on the progression and style, etc.


    Chord structures have a quality that is well described as literally "ATTYA" because they may be different things in different contexts.
    Last edited by pauln; 07-05-2021 at 05:25 PM.

  10. #9

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    Yea... I see and hear as just relative chords... or voicings Can be V and sub V of relative... E-9 the relative Min. of Gmaj. you could and I also could use those voicings as II V's of again Relative Min of G.....

    Personally it's harmonically muddy.... but that is how many embellishment school players work. Difficult to arrange for large ensemble or BB. Same thing with Dim. voicings.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    I'm happy to read that you may inquire further into BH hamonic method to help uncover the seeming mystery(s) here.

    What you're looking for are answers to: why this voicing can be chosen, why does it work in this particular case and most importantly...how was it ' BUILT ' ?

    The second you voiced xx78 you brought the tri-tones of F7 ( rootless ) into play and that is the ' back door ' to G major scale, so that explains the V movement of the voicing.

    Barry's teaching states that there is a minor 6 on the 5th of seventh chords among other things ( this chord spells it's ' parent ' seventh chord with a 9 and rootless )
    That would mean that a C minor 6 ' lives ' on the 5 of F7.

    As guitarists we use an inversion of this all the time.... xx7888.

    In Barry Harris Harmonic theory, a scale of chords created using C minor 6 and B dim 7, would put a diminished 7 chord right between the root chord
    xx10 12 10 11 and a third inversion xx7888.

    In the voicing stated above, an alto voice was ' borrowed ' from that diminished chord replacing the alto voice of the original inversion.

    xx78 suggests the major third and minor seven of F7 without a root and xxxxx8 would be the 5 of F7 so I'd read that voicing as F7#9.

    I do like and use this type of voicing often, inverting it down by minor thirds...

    3x443x
    x5666x
    5x555x
    x3444x

    ...is a nice ' Blue Moon ' turn !
    With reference to your suggested (and pleasing) 'Blue Moon' turn:

    3x443x
    x5666x
    5x555x
    x3444x

    I see the x5666x as a voicing of E7 (b7 3 13 b9) going to Am7
    and the x3444x as a D7 of the same voicing cycling back to the Gmaj7.

    Now I see the Jimmy Bruno example as using the back door idea.
    So in your example it would be x2333x functioning as an G7 (3 b7 #9 5) going to Am7 (could use x8999x)
    and x0111x functioning as a F7 cycling back to Gmaj7 (could use x6777).

    Cheers.

  12. #11

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    I see buried in there the tritone subs.
    If the II-V-I is for G he has Db stuff in there.
    the top three notes of the first is Ebmajor7/A
    the top three of the second is Ab/A
    and the resolution is to the real target G major7
    while not the expected ii minor or ii dom, he may have needed to keep that D on top
    but you get the movement of Eb-Ab- in the inner voices with the A held until it drops to the I

    I like the simple answers, my brain is getting less elastic all the time

  13. #12

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    I like the simple answers, my brain is getting less elastic all the time[/QUOTE]

    if your ears are running out of rubber...add more rubber...

    joe diorio: .."..keep stretching your ears.."

  14. #13

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    I think of it by application.

    So, for example, xx3535 leads nicely to xx3454 and then xx2233.

    In this case, it's a rootless G13b9, but the bassist will probably be playing a G, if this is a ii V I.

    In another application it's xx7968 xx6787 xx7585. Also ii V I in C.

    Lots of others. What they have in common is that there is a major triad with a b9 in the bass. That makes it diminished, in effect, and dim chords move up the neck in minor thirds.

    Note also that x8999x is the same chord. In that situation the voice leading is really obvious 10 x 10 10 10 x to x8999x x7778x

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy View Post
    I have always thought of the chord xx7898 as rootless B13b9.
    Watching Jimmy Bruno on ATTYA (song in key of Ab) at bars 17, 18 and 19 he plays (in a chord melody version)
    one bar of xx7 8 8 10
    one bar of xx7898
    and one of xx5777.
    Its a II V I in G
    So the V could be looked at as a rootless D7b9#11 with both the 5th and the b5 (#11), or the tritone Ab7b9 (with b9 in the bass and no 7th).
    I guess this is a common application but new to me.
    Any other ways of looking at it?
    Cheers
    Guitar thinking is much shape related... which is both an advantage that I often use and disatavantage that often puts us in the frames of association the shape with particular function (function not in trad classical sense (T/S/D) but general harmonic function).

    This shape contains Anat - Eb - Ab - C (to some degree it is important to consider also the tessitura position and the disposition of notes within the chord)...
    So lets just try to put it above different basses and to relove it using some turnaround ... there are many applications then

    I did the excersise for fun where I take some shape and play every single bass below it imaginging it to be a ii chord or V or iii or whatever going to some next chord... and trying to resolve it... many things work... and I choose if I like some and use it...


    I also think that in jazz harmony the idea of finction is much extended:

    Am7 can be associated with
    - a chord in classical sense (abstract set of notes in close voicing and in main non-nverted form)
    - a particular voicing
    - a shape (on guitar) meaning fixed voicing in particalar place
    - a function within changes (yes a chord can become a function)

    so the simplest example we all know:
    a particular shape/a voicing of Am7 can function as C6

    And by the way not every shape of Am7 would work for C6 equally well in every context
    Last edited by Jonah; 07-22-2021 at 06:45 AM.