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  1. #26

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    wow... christian, you hate these threads, but almost 1/2 the posts are you, so love to hate.

    Susb9 or 7susb9 chords are great voicings that can have any function, as well as used...direct, pivotal and transitional. Easy chord or voicing to create access to different note collections. Work well for deceptive function and the camouflage thing....opening Modal and modal interchange doors. (helps get past the vanilla syndrome), also one of the few chords where the basic 3rd and 7th chord tones aren't the most important.

    Fra88... if your trying to understand Harmony, sometimes you need to expand contrapuntal guidelines. Voice leading is just your choice of how lines move... You can decide which notes are the important notes and control the movement but Harmony deals with roots and Functional movement.

    The simple approach to use susb9 chords is as a Sub. Like a sub for II-, V7s and even II Vs . I'm only suggesting because you'll be able hear with an embellishment approach. Most people have either very vanilla ears or just haven't had exposure to expansion of borrowing concepts, modal interchange and just basic modal concepts.

    Eventually you'll be able to expand sub applications. You probable understand tritone and maybe Relative and Parallel concepts, but maybe haven't applied them with modal and modal interchange approach. If you use Blue Notes as more than embellishments... you'll have access to even more chords as subs.... Anyway, usually not understanding is just not being aware. Don't get stuck looking at one tree in a forest.
    Last edited by Reg; 06-19-2021 at 09:39 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    For me dom flat9 chords often resolve to a minor chord. That about as simple as I can make it.

  4. #28

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    Sus b9 is an exotic dominant sound, and coincidentally the second mode of melodic minor, or you can simply use the Phrygian mode. They are only one note different, and sound very similar. Sus b9 can resolve to a tonic major or a minor, that doesn’t matter, or can just vamp without resolving.
    Last edited by rintincop; 06-29-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    wow... christian, you hate these threads, but almost 1/2 the posts are you, so love to hate.
    Well, why do you think I hate them? They suck me in.

    Seriously, you of all people must also presumably understand how hard it can be to express what seems actually pretty simple into something concise and readable :-)

  6. #30

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    Keith Jarrett will play a solo piano ballad and go like

    |G-9 | C7sus / / C7 sus b9 |F Maj 9 |

    So he’d probably run the Bb melodic minor over the C7 sus b9

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Keith Jarrett will play a solo piano ballad and go like

    |G-9 | C7sus / / C7 sus b9 |F Maj 9 |

    So he’d probably run the Bb melodic minor over the C7 sus b9
    And why wouldn’t you?

    Oh how’s this for concise

    if V7sus4 is a IV chord in disguise
    then V7 sus b9 is a IVm chord in disguise.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    And why wouldn’t you?

    Oh how’s this for concise

    if V7sus4 is a IV chord in disguise
    then V7 sus b9 is a IVm chord in disguise.
    and how well they are hiding...

    suspended flat 9 chord by Mark Levine-disguzise3-jpg

  9. #33

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    Key of "F" using basic Diatonic Subs...


    E-7b5 and C7 are diatonic Dominant Functional chords in key of Fmaj. They're Diatonic Functional subs for each other.

    E-7b5 is same notes as G-6 , so G-6 is also Diatonic Functional sub of C7.

    If you use Parallel Relative Borrowing.... Fmaj becomes Fmin.

    G-7b5 and C7b9 are Dominant chords of Fmin. ( depends on what Note collection you want to use etc...)

    Anyway G-7b5 is same as Bb-6 or IV-6, so IV-6 can easily have... Diatonic Parallel Relative Function.

    And The C7 can easily become C7susb9... using basic diatonic borrowing from parallel relative approach.

    There are many more musical approaches to create access to susb9 and sus7b9 chords or note collections that have standard functional organization. The point being... not to just use embellishment as source of access. (not that there is anything wrong with embellishment). When you arrange and orchestrate... it's easier and generally sounds and feels better when there is musical organization for pitch collections. That... when your in a forest, don't get stuck only seeing the tree of the moment.

  10. #34

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    Since you already have the book, check out the Sus and Sus b9 Chords section in the Advanced Reharmonization chapter (page 321). He gives many examples of its use as a substitution for II-V. That is II-V becames V7susb9.

    Also see more applications of this in the Combining Techniques section of the same chapter (p.345).
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-21-2021 at 09:45 AM.

  11. #35

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    Yea.. that's great advice. Most of Mark's theory book is not complete understandings of music theory. It's designed with the working player in mind. And his reharmonization sections, even the beginning theory sections etc... Are just general guidelines for performing musicians. Possible applications.

    You just can't put music theory into 1 book... Mark's from old school theory and early Chord Scale concepts, generally more from Modal concepts. If your looking for the transition of old school Functional Harmony, the vanilla version to modern Functional concepts... Your not going to get it out of Marks Books. He's always been a wonderful performer, composer and arranger. And his books are designed to help you become just that.

    Like I posted above....Susb9 chords are voicings, you need to make a choice of how to use, or listen to whom your performing with and go from there.

    You make analysis of context and from that analysis create a starting Reference which defines the organization of defining which type of musical relationship you want that Voicing or chord to function as.

  12. #36

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    The first example that pops into my mind is Night and Day played as

    G7sus b9 | G7sus b9 | C maj7 |
    vanilla would be D-7 | G7 | C maj7 |
    the combo would be D-7 | G7sus G7sus b9 | C maj7 |
    and the classic Cole Porter D-7b5 | G7b9 | C maj7 |

  13. #37

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    Yea... makes for fun chord patterns and improv.
    Porter tunes have always been cool. His use of Borrowing, relative and parallel...almost in modal interchange approach, were some of my 1st exposures to Harmonic major... V13b9 or V7susb9, lots of cool lead lines.

    yea... D-7 G7 Cmaj7... I mean you have great access to Fmm. Abmm CMaj and their chord forms. Nice.

    So you were around for Mark's trombone days...
    Last edited by Reg; 06-22-2021 at 12:10 AM.

  14. #38

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    I think Barry Greene makes this simple and practical:

    suspended flat 9 chord by Mark Levine-screen-shot-2021-06-29-4-06-33-pm-jpg

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhbpa
    I think Barry Greene makes this simple and practical:

    suspended flat 9 chord by Mark Levine-screen-shot-2021-06-29-4-06-33-pm-jpg
    I really like this diagram, don't know much about Greene's teaching but it looks very similar to the way I've looked at it for a long time. It's definitely one of the more helpful charts I've seen for jazz edu.


    • again, it's one note.
    • mixed usage in classic jazz. Most of the greats of the pre-70s era chop and change between these two options. Even Herbie does it.
    • TBH I think the maj7 on E7 is really a theoretical hang up than anything to be too concerned with. I have to say from transcription, major 7th's get played on altered dominants A LOT, even by players of the modal era. You tritone sub a II V for an altered dominant, that type of thing. Now of course, musicians are trained not to, but not every solo needs to be a harmony exercise.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-29-2021 at 05:45 PM.

  16. #40

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    I would diagram the chord associated with the modes of melodic minor in diatonic order. That would be a more organized presentation.

  17. #41

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    For simple and practical, I think like this ...

    All melodic minor chords generated from a melodic minor scale are the same chord. Per Mark Levine.

    There is one note different between dorian and melodic minor.

    So you think, say, Fminor. That gives you F G Ab Bb C.

    Then, you pick the 6th and 7th you want by ear, in any combination. That gives Db, D, Eb, E (or absence thereof) in any good-sounding combination. Embedded in this are dorian, mel min, harmonic minor and probably some scale names I don't know.

    So, say you think to play Gsusb9 in Night and Day. That chord is G phrygian (out of Ebmajor) or second mode Fmelmin. The difference is Eb vs E. E sounds better to me. So, it's Fmelmin to my ear. That's all I need to know.

    But, just to add some marginally helpful details:

    I can substitute any chord generated by Fmelmin for any other chord generated by Fmelmin.. Typically, that means Fm6, Fminmaj7, Abmaj7#5, Bb7#11, C7b13, Dm7b5 Ealt. They're interchangeable, per Levine. He has a nice section on this in Jazz Theory.

    They'll all work in comping. For example, try xx2113 in the place of Gsusb9. You probably won't like it. Now try 3x2113. That G in the bass makes all the difference, to my ear, and the resulting chord, G E Ab C G sounds good to me. Try xx3554. Then 3x3554. That low G straightens it out and then it sounds right.

    Any line that you might have in your mind associated with any of them will also work. In fact, just about any random 3 notes selected from Fmelmin with a G in the bass will work, more or less. And, for every one, you can see if you prefer Eb to E, which is the same thing as comparing dorian to mel min.

    Caveat: I'm aware that I'm not qualified to post in a Theory thread.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I would diagram the chord associated with the modes of melodic minor in diatonic order. That would be a more organized presentation.
    Its a different way of organising the material; but why do you think it would be more organised?

  19. #43

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    It's simple because the chord is being used as a voicing, an interchangeable voicing. The voicings are standard and used by many players... (myself included). They're great... can become multi functional chords when musically organized. Musically organized, meaning... harmonically organized.

    It gets a little more complicated when you actually functionally use those voicings. Create Functional References for the voicings. But who cares... I dig most of BG's material, he's a wonderful player and teacher.