Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1

    User Info Menu



    A vid for MM beginners

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Oh yeah, Lydian Dominant rooted on the tritone, but staying off that root for best results.
    Liked it because to me, it was "darker old jazz" than some of the brighter modern sounds.
    Also because it was the first "jazz sound" I discovered how to play that sounded real cool.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for this Christian.
    I've fought with the MM scale for ages, off and on. I'm finally finding my way in with chords and you've just given some, needed organization!

    Cheers,
    Mike

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    I also use the second mode of melodic minor on dominants when playing ballads:

    Ex: Typical Keith Jarrett move.
    | D-7 | G7sus (mixolyd.) to G7sus b9 (F melodic minor) | Cmaj7 |

    On piano it’s usually easier to think up a half step to play melodic minor for the Dominant “Alt” type chords rather than thinking a tritone away.

    I think its important to understand why there aren’t really any avoid notes in melodic minor harmony. Every combination of its notes is possible for voicings works and is interchangeable across all its modes. Therefore it’s very flexible.

    Guitarist John Stowell is someone that likes to superimpose a mode of melodic minor on every chord in a standard whether it sounds weird or not.

    i was surprised the video didn’t mention play the first mode of melodic minor on “tonic” minor chords. That seems like the first step to me. Then learn the coincidental conveniences if it’s modes.
    And even it’s 3rd mode. The modes of melodic minor are especially useful on Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and later tunes such as on the ECM label.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-27-2021 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I also use the second mode of melodic minor on dominants when playing ballads:

    Ex: Typical Keith Jarrett move.
    | D-7 | G7sus (mixolyd.) to G7sus b9 (F melodic minor) | Cmaj7 |

    On piano it’s usually easier to think up a half step to play melodic minor for the Dominant “Alt” type chords rather than thinking a tritone away.

    I think its important to understand why there aren’t really any avoid notes in melodic minor harmony. Every combination of its notes is possible for voicings works and is interchangeable across all its modes. Therefore it’s very flexible.

    Guitarist John Stowell is someone that likes to superimpose a mode of melodic minor on every chord in a standard whether it sounds weird or not.

    i was surprised the video didn’t mention play the first mode of melodic minor on “tonic” minor chords. That seems like the first step to me. Then learn the coincidental conveniences if it’s modes.
    And even it’s 3rd mode. The modes of melodic minor are especially useful on Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and later tunes such as on the ECM label.
    Well there was lots of stuff I could have included but the video is meant to be a beginners guide. you have to make these videos bounded or they just go on for hours. Try making one and you’ll see.

    So I chose to focus on four basic applications and the simplest framing I could come up with. (A fair bit of thought went into this video - it’s not simply ‘this is stuff I know about melodic minor.’ Plus it gives me the option of doing videos on these other topics at a later date.)

    I actually think it’s easier to think one semitone up melodic minor as well; converting to minor is something I actually do a lot and have talked about on my channel quite a bit.(derivative thinking as Mick Goodrick calls it)

    But I rather liked this as an alternative approach. Rather than constructing a new theoretical scale on a different root, one can instead focus on a specific single tone that gives the so called melodic minor colour. (Parallel thinking too, which I actually use a lot less)

    If you like just think of the ‘7’ of the relevant melodic minor. But that’s two conversions to make in your head, and I felt one was easier for n00bs. Maybe. Maybe not.

    Crucially I felt it would focus the ear training aspect; it’s a good way in to learn to hear that one characteristic note. That’s the main thing of this video actually.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-27-2021 at 07:24 AM.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I'll share my way of thinking about it, although I don't claim expertise.

    For dominant chords:

    Let's take G7.

    Plain vanilla is G mixolydian.

    If you want a G7#11 sound, you change one note, C to C#. That's what some people call a G7#11 scale. Others call it 4th mode Dmelmin or G lydian dominant.

    If you want G7susb9 sound, you're changing two notes from G mixolydian You lower A to Ab to get the b9. You raise B to C, to get the sus. That gives a scale of G Ab B C D E F. That's fifth mode C harmonic major. But, if you think G7susb9#9, then that Bb makes it Fmelmin. To my way of thinking it starts getting overcomplicated.

    G7b9b13. Now you're lowering the A and E. 5th mode C harmonic minor, if you want to think of it that way.

    G7b5b13b9#9 aka Galt, takes Abmelmin.

    There's another discussion about usage. G7 in a V-I in C major is one thing. If it's a secondary dominant, eg. a II7 in Fmajor, or a VI7 in Bb, it's another. I glossed over that in what I just presented. Maybe that's okay though because you can try them all for yourself and see which sounds work best. You might find alt and lyd dom work best in different contexts. Or, stated another way, you might prefer not to play Galt in the same places you play G7#11.

    Dm. As a tonic, Dmelmin.

    Dm7b5, often said to "take" Fmelmin, but that means you're playing Bb rather than B. Since that' probably what you really want, it's fine.

    Dm7b5 also comes from Ebmajor. Do you want an E or an Eb in your scale? One way it's melmin the other way it's major (well, Dlocrian).

    How do you learn the sounds? Play ii V I's in C and try the various choices for G7(with alterations). Strum the chords to hear the sounds. Then, record a loop of ii V I's (just use root, third and 7th on the G) and try all the alternatives as a basis for a solo line. For those new to this, it's basically knowing where all the white keys (notes of Cmajor) are and then changing to the black keys you need. Of course, sooner than later, you'll need to know all the other keys too.

    To sum up, I think it's a good idea to think about the chord names (and the notes in them) and not have to go through the mental gymnastics to find the notes by thinking something akin to "G7#11 is 4th mode Dmelmin, where is my Dmelmin scale?" Although, it may allow you to learn fewer fingering patterns, if you're a pattern based player.

    My approach involves knowing the notes in the chords you use. Also, the tonal center, if there is one.

    In this post I started with G7 and changed a few obvious notes. The scale names then included mixo, three different melodic minors, a locrian, harmonic major and harmonic minor. There are some advantages to thinking that way, I guess, for example, recognizing that the absence of avoid notes in melodic minor means you can use any voicing generated by melmin interchangeably with any other. So, that may mean that it's worth knowing which melodic minor you're on .. otherwise you have to learn 6 substitutions (could be way more if the chords are not just tertian) in 12 keys.

    And, eventually, this approach fails badly at some things. At high tempo, you don't necessarily have time to think. It can make getting outside sounds maybe a little more difficult - you have to think in chord overlays, like I'll play x arp against y chord in the piano. For example, it may be easier to think of playing Abm(add9) or Abmelmin rather than G7b9b13#11#9. Eventually, you get to the same place by either path.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-27-2021 at 08:06 PM.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    When the associations are learned there is very little thinking required.

    It all boils down to the modes of major and the modes of melodic minor. It’s all I really need.

    And the 3 diminished scales and 2 whole tone scale.

    And the major and the minor blues scales.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    When the associations are learned there is very little thinking required.

    It all boils down to the modes of major and the modes of melodic minor. It’s all I really need.

    And the 3 diminished scales and 2 whole tone scale.

    And the major and the minor blues scales.
    Check out Mick Goodrick's the Advancing Guitarist p62-64.

    I've tended to preferences derivative thinking (as does Barry Harris with the whole important minor/Dm7b5=Fm6 thing) but parallel thinking has some advantages to it.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop

    I think its important to understand why there aren’t really any avoid notes in melodic minor harmony. Every combination of its notes is possible for voicings works and is interchangeable across all its modes.
    I’ve noticed this too ....
    for example if you’re going for a G7alt sound , you can play any/all of the Abmm chords !

    wonderful buy WHY ?

    (its as if mm is not functional ....
    no Tritone i suppose ?)

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Actually I do think there are a few avoid notes.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    I’ve noticed this too ....
    for example if you’re going for a G7alt sound , you can play any/all of the Abmm chords !

    wonderful buy WHY ?

    (its as if mm is not functional ....
    no Tritone i suppose ?)
    agreed...took me a long time to "feel" this sound/scale..but when I discovered I could use any and all the "chords" of the mm..(and their alterations) in creating solo ideas

    and many have said the MM is non-functional..and that point opens up the door for using this scale..with whole tone scales implied .. lots of "connecting" points can be used as any chord interval can weave in and out of related chords/scales..

    Bobby Stern has a great book on the MM..

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    It depends on your definition of functional. You could play
    ||: C-maj7 to F7+4 :||
    That’s functional in that it works and is derived strictly from C melodic minor

    you could play: I vi II V derived from naturally occurring chords:
    ||: C-maj7 A-7b5 |. |D7sus b9 G7b13 :|| that works and occurs naturally in C melodic minor

    wiki says “In music, function is a term used to denote the relationship of a chord or a scale degree to a tonal centre”

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    rintin...

    very impressive music history...

    Mark Isham...wow..

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Nice video. I like using melodic minor for minor, dominant, and half dim chords. I find it makes things easier and sounds good. I want to get into melodic minor cliche melodies.

    For minor - tonicizing the minor sounds cool to me and I think it's a good option to have on the pallet.
    For dominant - lydian dominant and diminished whole tone sound great to me and are Monk-y and spikey.
    For half dim - locrian natural 2 sounds cool as well even though the natural 2 over the minor ii chord is the major 3rd of the minor key.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    Nice video. I like using melodic minor for minor, dominant, and half dim chords. I find it makes things easier and sounds good. I want to get into melodic minor cliche melodies.

    For minor - tonicizing the minor sounds cool to me and I think it's a good option to have on the pallet.
    For dominant - lydian dominant and diminished whole tone sound great to me and are Monk-y and spikey.
    For half dim - locrian natural 2 sounds cool as well even though the natural 2 over the minor ii chord is the major 3rd of the minor key.
    Major 3rd in minor key is a beautiful thing... players were doing that just by playing a major II-V in a minor key way back....

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Rubisa Patrol got heavy rotation back in the day...

  18. #17

    User Info Menu