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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Ha. I guess you're talking about my post? To be fair, I was actually discussing how one might more easily apply familiar VOCABULARY.

    Do you not get the feeling, from others' posts, that there is a basic disconnect - for many -with applying familiar diatonic -type vocabulary over altered? My basic sense from others in multiple threads is something like: "When I play my dominant -type vocabulary and change the notes to altered, it sounds crap". I personally think the assumed methodology in statements like that *is* the actual problem, but I'd be interested to hear whether you think I am misunderstanding something in hearing that over multiple threads?

    My claim, maybe not clearly stated, is that you'll get much farther in exploring D7 altered, as a beginner, if you approach it "as if" you're playing Ab7, Eb-maj7, Cm7b5, F#maj7#5 (enharmonic) etc. Even though all altered scale pitches are somewhat "chord tones", melodic playing is more easily heard and played in the context of chord tones and passing tones, even if arbitrarily implied in the moment.

    All of these examples sound great as D7. They convey altered very well and allow a beginner to use familiar chord tone/passing tone vocabulary, including arps, in learning to hear and play altered.

    Anyway, that's my supposition, and I would be interested to hear others' thoughts related to my possible misunderstanding of other players' stated issues /problems.... or related to flaws in my thinking regarding methodology… beyond dismissive one-liners. :-)

    PS: it's a forum. Hence, words... I'd except criticism about my being long-winded from posters, such as Mr. B, who are actually quite often pithy and concise. :-) Just saying.

    All said with best intentions.

    Thanks.
    I can dole out a lot of hypocrisy but not that much. It was aimed at myself as much as anyone. Look, part of the problem is whenever I write out stuff I find simple it looks like ... all the other theory. I’m just not sure if it helps much. Well not people learning the basic ropes anyway.

    i know what does help here - playing lines.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    The thing about using, for example, chord scales is this; you need musical intuition which comes from experience and a ton of listening.

    A jazz musician playing around with a chord scale thing is not the same as a beginner. The jazzer has an intuition for what makes an effective line, what swings. So they can go from basic material into music.

    the beginner obviously can’t do this.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Everything I said was based on the presumption that one can actually play some basic vocabulary over diatonic in the first place.
    edit: what chris said

  5. #29

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    hey Alsoran

    There are a few approaches to using altered references. Everyone has their own approach or they copy someone else.

    I'll skip the complicated BS, most don't care or have the skills anyway. But as Matt was getting into... Rhythm and Harmonic rhythm are the easiest approach to using Altered notes, scales, arpeggios...whatever version of creating lines your using.

    The 1st approach or vanilla version is just using Strong and weak, Tonic and Dominant. On your II-7 V7 Ima7

    If you want to use altered scale or arpeggios etc.. on D7.... Whatever the space, say two beats. Call the second beat the Weak beat. Do on the 1st beat you say Diatonic to your Vanilla D7 and on the weak or 2nd beat you would use the altered version of D7... D7alt.

    What your actually doing is expanding the harmonic Rhythm. Say the progression was.../ A-7 D7 / Gma7.../

    You would be adding a D7altered to the 1st Bar after the D7, on the 4th beat... / A-7 D7 D7alt / Gmaj7.../

    Or as others were saying... adding some other chord from that collection of notes, Pauln likes the tritone sub or Ab7#11 version... Matt was just giving more examples of possible chords that also are created from that different collection of notes, Ebmm.

    If you check out my playing.... I use this approach all the time.... Having chops makes using and understanding this basic application of expanding Harmonic Rhythm when soloing or comping simple.

    Think like Licks. You don't really need to go through the thinking process every time you use a Lick. The lick becomes or functions like a... note. You expand your ability of using notes melodically. You begin to hear groups of notes.

    And when you start using Rhythm and subdividing... Your expanding the Harmonic Rhythm. You create more organized space for notes.

    You then start having each note to have Harmonic references. Those two beats of D7 to D7altered can become a Chord Progression A-7... D9 Ab7#11 C-7b5 D7#9 / Gmaj7.../ And the simple target notes could be... note for each chord...................... C ... E....D..........Eb.......F....../..D

    But... yea you either want to understand the BS or you don't.

    I use to just call this playing on the weak side..... and when you sub divide your creating more space for weak sides.

    Yea.. that is just a possible 1st step.... when you open the sub dominant door, you expand possibilities.

  6. #30

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    I thought the OP was asking whether to change the chord in BIAB to an altered if he's going to play an altered.

    It's a good question and the answer isn't a simple yes or no.

    If you comp a ii V I and play on the tritone sub for the V it will sound hip. If you then change the comping to the tritone sub for the V, the same solo will sound less hip.

    On the other hand, there will be situations, probably with fancier harmony, where you'd do it the opposite way.

    Yet another consideration is the octave. If you solo in the same octave as the comping, half step disagreements between the chord and a note in the solo may not sound as good as the same solo played an octave higher.

    You just have to try it both ways.

  7. #31

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    Yea...that was his 1st question... I moved on to 2nd question. And then how to use Altered, and simple improv approach to expanding note collections when soloing. How to use Harmonic Rhythm as simple approach to organize when expanding note collections when soloing. (or comping).

    The Harmonic rhythm is not just the chords, it's how the chords or harmony are organized rhythmically.

    Of course, using tritone subs as note collections when soloing etc... probably should come after one knows... the organization of what and where of those note collections come from. ( at least it's something to think about))

  8. #32

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    You should use ultralocrian, because that’s one better

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I thought the OP was asking whether to change the chord in BIAB to an altered if he's going to play an altered.

    It's a good question and the answer isn't a simple yes or no.

    If you comp a ii V I and play on the tritone sub for the V it will sound hip. If you then change the comping to the tritone sub for the V, the same solo will sound less hip.

    On the other hand, there will be situations, probably with fancier harmony, where you'd do it the opposite way.

    Yet another consideration is the octave. If you solo in the same octave as the comping, half step disagreements between the chord and a note in the solo may not sound as good as the same solo played an octave higher.

    You just have to try it both ways.
    After reading through this thread again, this post seemed to hone in on what I could not put properly into words for my my first question.

    In past threads, I asked about how does a band know when to play an altered chord in the harmony since there are multiple altered notes. Many answered that it is agreed upon in advance. But, since then, I have learned how in comping, a nice style of comping is taking little half and whole step liberties with the notes of the chord as you play through its measure. This creates little dissonances, the extent of which depends on what everyone else is playing.

    I can see it really depends on how much dissonance one might be after on the functioning V chord. Which really makes the answer based on what one is after.

    I am thinking that at this point, it might be best to seek out one of our local Jazz Guitar instructors (time-permitting), and take advantage of some of this stimulus money that I recieved.

  10. #34

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    So your taking the 1st step.... now you need to organize how you use those "dissonances," The easiest and generally 2nd step is using rhythmic organization as the organization. It's basically one dimensional... not that complicated to .... say use your "dissonances"... on the weaker attacks of your comping or soloing. Tension and release

    And then is you start with possible 3rd steps, like using ultra Locrian as christian suggested from Harmonic minor... or Altered, which is generally from MM... now your adding a 3rd level of organization.

    When you begin to be able to have controlled use of these different organizations of playing.... the results tend to be better, they feel natural and ... maybe even be able to lock in... groove etc...

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    After reading through this thread again, this post seemed to hone in on what I could not put properly into words for my my first question.

    In past threads, I asked about how does a band know when to play an altered chord in the harmony since there are multiple altered notes. Many answered that it is agreed upon in advance. But, since then, I have learned how in comping, a nice style of comping is taking little half and whole step liberties with the notes of the chord as you play through its measure. This creates little dissonances, the extent of which depends on what everyone else is playing.

    I can see it really depends on how much dissonance one might be after on the functioning V chord. Which really makes the answer based on what one is after.

    I am thinking that at this point, it might be best to seek out one of our local Jazz Guitar instructors (time-permitting), and take advantage of some of this stimulus money that I recieved.
    OK, so the problem is really that there’s no blanket rule.

    Someone like Peter Bernstein can take considerable liberties with the vanilla chords, but he’s also a massively experienced musician with great ears, so what he does will always work in context because he’s listening.

    A machine can’t (yet) do this. It can only literally or algorithmically interpret the chord symbols. It ends up being very literal like this.

    beyond learning the basics, it’s helpful to learn to sing all of the extensions and alterations over the base chords, transcribe lines.

    Beginners need to learn how to voice lead chords on their own, without relying on backing.

  12. #36

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    Yes maybe make sure the teacher can actually understand the differences....Most can't

  13. #37

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    It’s like Pokemon right?

    Locrian-Superlocrian-Ultralocrian

    Ultralocrian isnt even his final form

  14. #38

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    But bear in mind you can’t play any of these scales on a telecaster

  15. #39

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    I've read that the comping instrument is supposed to listen to the extensions played by the soloist and use the same ones.

    But, I have been scolded by a master player for doing exactly that. He played tritone sub against V7. Next chorus, I did too. He got angry and snapped, "you didn't help me out there". He wanted the tension created by the V7 in the comping and the tritone in the solo.

    And, then, of course, not all of us have the ability to do that -- to know instantly what notes are in the solo and find (or avoid) the chord with those notes.

    So, what do you do?

    First, play with great time feel. If the soloist is playing a lot of notes, the comper plays fewer. If the soloist leaves space, you have the option of filling it in, but it's only an option, not a requirement. When I'm soloing, I often want the dead air -- it's like whispering to get someone's attention.

    As far as the notes go, you can start with thirds and sevenths. I like roots and tenths sometimes. Then you vary things and listen to the result. TBH, I don't really know what elseto say about this. I'm reminded of a drummer who interrupted some obsessive discussion in advance of rehearsing a tune and said, "let's just play it and make it sound good".

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've read that the comping instrument is supposed to listen to the extensions played by the soloist and use the same ones.

    But, I have been scolded by a master player for doing exactly that. He played tritone sub against V7. Next chorus, I did too. He got angry and snapped, "you didn't help me out there". He wanted the tension created by the V7 in the comping and the tritone in the solo.

    And, then, of course, not all of us have the ability to do that -- to know instantly what notes are in the solo and find (or avoid) the chord with those notes.

    So, what do you do?

    First, play with great time feel. If the soloist is playing a lot of notes, the comper plays fewer. If the soloist leaves space, you have the option of filling it in, but it's only an option, not a requirement. When I'm soloing, I often want the dead air -- it's like whispering to get someone's attention.

    As far as the notes go, you can start with thirds and sevenths. I like roots and tenths sometimes. Then you vary things and listen to the result. TBH, I don't really know what elseto say about this. I'm reminded of a drummer who interrupted some obsessive discussion in advance of rehearsing a tune and said, "let's just play it and make it sound good".
    Wow. I guess I should not be surprised at how subjective this topic of harmony in a band setting can be. I have heard similar stories from others who play Jazz, and they have said they just listen and follow - not worrying about any momentary "excessive" dissonance. Thanks for sharing your experience.

    For now, I will just slowly work in altered tones both in the chords and in the solo. I think you suggested this awhile back.

    I am still strongly considering a few months of Jazz lessons here locally with a fellow that I know.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've read that the comping instrument is supposed to listen to the extensions played by the soloist and use the same ones.

    But, I have been scolded by a master player for doing exactly that. He played tritone sub against V7. Next chorus, I did too. He got angry and snapped, "you didn't help me out there". He wanted the tension created by the V7 in the comping and the tritone in the solo.
    Aha! So I think this is a really deep thing right here.

    You get these things rhythmically too.... so a soloist plays dotted quarters for example. Inexperienced musicians will latch right on. It’s a sort of ‘look I hear what you did!’ vibe. ‘Look, I’m interacting and I’m told that was important in improv class.’

    OTOH The old veteran will hear it; but not necessarily respond. They are hearing the whole music, and they are also hearing that negative space guys are discussing on that other thread.

    Harmony wise? I don’t think you can go far wrong with shell voicings. That way the soloist has options with what kind of extensions etc to play. And as Peter Bernstein points out, chords on the beat and in root position are often the best idea (maybe more so in duo.) Sometimes it’s good just to play the corners and let the soloist do the jazz; if that’s what the situation requires.

    I don’t need a comper playing extended chords and unpredictable syncopated rhythms; I’m doing that in my solo. That doesn’t mean everyone comp only basic stuff all the time but it’s a start and you have to learn how to interact I guess. Takes a lot of playing and listening. The negative space thing is huge.

    (And sometimes you need to do something else, but that’s further down the road....)

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s like Pokemon right?

    Locrian-Superlocrian-Ultralocrian

    Ultralocrian isnt even his final form
    Forget the scale - it's a great name for a shampoo!

  19. #43

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    For me it depends on on the tempo. If it’s a ballad, possibilities become much more vast and detailed. On medium and up-tempo’s the choices become smaller.

    As a pianist my left hand is usually playing chords when I solo. That gives me an anchor of thought instinct that a guitarist don’t seem to have. so personally I have wired myself to instinctively go for this first choice instinct:

    Ballads:
    |D-7 G7|

    I play:
    | D-7 / G7sus G7 *|

    * = point of altering possibilities

    When medium tempo or quicker I simplify like Barry Harris says “we don’t play II scales”. We play Dominant. I vary my dominant alterations from my melodic instincts and experience (familiarity) being my guide. Not just by the chords changes, even though I was trained that way; after a while and one breaks away from that, IMO

    I underwent private intensive chord scale training with Mark Levine 40 years ago and he was somewhat pedantic about the modes of melodic minor and Alt scale. That fits in with the teaching methods of basic training. I immersed myself into it so that it became like the simple ABCs of music.
    I eventually realized that one does not need literally match the accompaniment chord of the moment , Barry Harris also points this out. And I testify that trying To do so is pedantic and limiting, and is somewhat maddening.

    The thread Has been an interesting read as I am bedridden with a broken right shoulder And a vaccine hangover.

  20. #44

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    I think also some shit that's absolutely natural and badass on the piano is not so much on the guitar. And vice versa. I know I'm a Peter fanboy, but this is my sort of thing harmonically.



    And it's just using the guitar fretboard and its innate chromaticism. I feel I've been missing a trick all this time.

  21. #45

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    Moved post to a new thread
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-02-2021 at 02:16 PM.

  22. #46

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    I think with the guitar it’s not so much the advantages as things that work with the instrument. The piano will always dominate in terms of sheer flexibility of harmony, but the guitar does some things that are very, well, guitary for want of a better word, open strings, fingerpicking patterns (especially re-enterent ones), harmonics, strumming, different tone colours and types of right hand attack, and so on and so forth. This is the type of stuff you’ll hear guitarists doing a lot in contemporary jazz bands.

    To my ears the guitarists that have done best with harmony for jazz are those that use the guitar to these natural proclivities and make it work within jazz, rather than sounding like a mediocre jazz pianist (and it takes a lot of application to sound like even a mediocre jazz pianist on guitar - just think of the time it takes to map where the flipping notes are.)

    Jim Hall was wise to this ...

    Peter has certainly achieved this, while also being heavily influenced by Monk in particular. There is quite a guitaristic aspect of Monk, interestingly.

    So I think a guitarist has to embrace their own instrument a bit; and stop trying to always make it a piano. Unless you are Pasquale Grasso of course haha.

    and yea having a degree of control over your instrument is most certainly a plus over the piano, especially when you consider all the sonic options a guitar gives you in terms of pedals etc. But portability has always been the instruments ace in the hole.

  23. #47

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    I also think the guitar has a bit of plus in a drum less setting because a strumming player can bring a bit of percussion into it. Of course it was quite traditional to do that with a pianist. The original piano trios were with guitar.