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  1. #1

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    Well, I have been trying to follow my ear. The chord progression is Ami7 - D7 - Gmajor7, a simple "2-5-1," and is part of my little etude.

    I have been playing the D Super Locrian over the D7 chord and it sound pretty good to my ears, and adding some tension when compared with D Mixolydian.

    I started also using D Super Locrian over the Ami7 as well, basically ignoring the chord and adding tension right away. I have heard others say that they have ignored the "iim7" chord and addressed the D7 (or D7 alt) right away. What do you think of this?

    (By the way those D Super Locrian notes give me a b5 ( a blue note), 6, and a b2, when played with the notes of the Amin7 chord. It appears to be A Locrian with an added natural 6.)

    Is there a scale or mode name for this collection of notes?
    What would you call it: R - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - 6 - b7
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 03-25-2021 at 08:40 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Well, I have been trying to follow my ear. The chord progression is Ami7 - D7 - Gmajor7, a simple "2-5-1," and is part of my little etude.

    I have been playing the D Super Locrian over the D7 chord and it sound pretty good to my ears, and adding some tension when compared with D Mixolydian.

    I started also using D Super Locrian over the Ami7 as well, basically ignoring the chord and adding tension right away. I have heard others say that they have ignored the "iim7" chord and addressed the D7 (or D7 alt) right away. What do you think of this?

    (By the way those D Super Locrian notes give me a b5 ( a blue note), 6, and a b2, when played with the notes of the Amin7 chord. It appears to be A Locrian with an added natural 6.)

    Is there a scale or mode name for this collection of notes?
    What would you call it: R - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - 6 - b7

    Locrian Natural 6th.
    not the same scale as the OP title, no b6. Which one do you mean?

  4. #3

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    I would call that formula Locrian Nat 6 as well but if you use the superlocrian on the V chord the scale won't have a root note on the ii chord so.. you'll have a weird situation. But I'm not sure if it matters much anyways

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    I would call that formula Locrian Nat 6 as well but if you use the superlocrian on the V chord the scale won't have a root note on the ii chord so.. you'll have a weird situation. But I'm not sure if it matters much anyways
    Right - those tones form Locrian Nat. 6, but

    those are not the tones played if one is playing the G altered scale, because the altered scale from V doesn't have the root of the II chord in it.


    I think that a lot of people play the II chord pretty plain in long Major II-V-I progressions - even with a lot of tensions and altered tensions on the V7. Short II-Vs are a little different, no?
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 03-25-2021 at 08:29 PM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    not the same scale as the OP title, no b6. Which one do you mean?
    Thank you, Sir Don.

    I have edited it to add that natural 6, along with the flat 6

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Right - those tones form Locrian Nat. 6, but

    those are not the tones played if one is playing the G altered scale, because the altered scale from V doesn't have the root of the II chord in it.


    I think that a lot of people play the II chord pretty plain in long Major II-V-I progressions - even with a lot of tensions and altered tensions on the V7. Short II-Vs are a little different, no?
    I had one heck of time trying to put this thread together. I am just no good with using theory to expand, and then being able to explain it.

    I was thinking, with this Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7, I was basically playing A Locrian, with an added natural 6, "over" the Amin7 chord. At least, those were the notes that I was finding when playing by ear.

    This collection of notes (A Locrian with a Nat 6) gave me the R - b3 - b7 of the Ami7 chord. It also has the b5 "blue note," the b6, which is in the Natural Minor Scale, and the 6th, which I believe has been recommended by forum members who study Barry Harris as great to use with the ii chord. The b2 (or "b9") is what it is, and I don't linger on it long.

    This does not seem to be something that makes sense to most, so maybe I am out on a tangent? Thanks for reaching out a hand, DonPG. I will keep working with it.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I had one heck of time trying to put this thread together. I am just no good with using theory to expand, and then being able to explain it.

    I was thinking, with this Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7, I was basically playing A Locrian, with an added natural 6, "over" the Amin7 chord. At least, those were the notes that I was finding when playing by ear.

    This collection of notes (A Locrian with a Nat 6) gave me the R - b3 - b7 of the Ami7 chord. It also has the b5 "blue note," the b6, which is in the Natural Minor Scale, and the 6th, which I believe has been recommended by forum members who study Barry Harris as great to use with the ii chord. The b2 (or "b9") is what it is, and I don't linger on it long.

    This does not seem to be something that makes sense to most, so maybe I am out on a tangent? Thanks for reaching out a hand, DonPG. I will keep working with it.

    On a tangent? No. Locrian Nat. 6 is the second mode of Harmonic Minor, so if that's what you want to play over a II chord that's perfectly fine, as long as you understand you're conveying a minor tonality sound (IImi7b5, not IImi7). And then on the V7 chord you're playing altered, which is used for both major and minor tonality V7 sounds.

    At least that's the way it seems to me...

  9. #8

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    So basically, harmonic minor sounds good on a minor II V I?

    ;-)

    Its almost as if you make up minor key melodies on minor key cadences they sound good. Who knew?

    in this vein remember that IIm7 comes up a lot in minor keys. And V9 too. Melodic minor, right? (II dorian b2, V Mixo b13 if you have to get into the convoluted terminology)

    I think theorists (or at least mass market theory books) often forget about this. There’s a lot of flexibility in minor. That melodic minor ‘ascending’ sound or jazz minor is all over late baroque music in descending lines. A jazz minor on E7 is found in this Kellner lute Phantasia I’m looking at for example. Bachs use of it is well known.

    In jazz, it’s all over... even caught Django at it the other day and it’s easy to stereotype him as mr harmonic minor.

  10. #9

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    in this vein remember that IIm7 comes up a lot in minor keys. And V9 too. Melodic minor, right? (II dorian b2, V Mixo b13 if you have to get into the convoluted terminology)
    Hm...
    I always liked Bm7 in Moon River instead of Bm7b5 when it goes to Am through E7...

    By the way in gypsy/Russian romances and later 'urban song' in minor key it was very common to use II7 dominant in minor key (secondary dominant, yes... but very intensive one)... and even preceded by its relative ii7b5

    Using m6 on tonic was/is also common....


    I guess it is more common for cultures where popular music is built around minor keys and minor turnarounds .. in France it is also there... and Django of course.

    But in American jazz it was not so common

  11. #10

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    found some examples to my post above

    Check here after 0:37 it goes basicallly
    Am - B7 -G7 - C
    When he sang that song with guitar only he usually played Am - B7 - Dm- E7

    I guess it is rather a triton sub to F harmonically than a secondary dom
    to




    And in this waltz you can hear it

    At 0:30 as cadence going for repeat
    B7 -E7 as a sub to Dm-E
    (Further on it is used a few times more)




    Another typical thing is ii-V for a ii... like Gm7 - A7 -Dm (no modulation Dm still sounds like iv in A minor)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    By the way in gypsy/Russian romances and later 'urban song' in minor key it was very common to use II7 dominant in minor key (secondary dominant, yes... but very intensive one)...
    Same thing here. Especially towards north, parts bordering Hungary and in "urban folk" (we call them "old city songs"), of course, highly influenced by Russian romances and such. B7 in A minor is common place, as well as various Dim7 (we simply call them "dim"). It is probably my least favourite kind of music (Not counting Pakistani Hip Hop Rap and similar "wonders of modern era".).




    My Band camp

  13. #12

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    Whatever you want to call this collection of notes, the “three chromatics in a row” (-6, 6,-7) renders it impossible to be used to build chords and progressions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Same thing here. Especially towards north, parts bordering Hungary and in "urban folk" (we call them "old city songs"), of course, highly influenced by Russian romances and such. B7 in A minor is common place, as well as various Dim7 (we simply call them "dim"). It is probably my least favourite kind of music (Not counting Pakistani Hip Hop Rap and similar "wonders of modern era".).




    My Band camp
    Not my favourite one either... but in 60s it formed here a sort of underground singing poets movement and some were really unique.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Not my favourite one either... but in 60s it formed here a sort of underground singing poets movement and some were really unique.
    Oh, that is different, Bulat Okudzava, Vysotsky ... it is more about poetry. They are cool for what they are. For me, they go together with those French guys, Jacques Brel and such.

    What I do not like is something like this:


    My Band camp

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So basically, harmonic minor sounds good on a minor II V I?

    ;-)

    Its almost as if you make up minor key melodies on minor key cadences they sound good. Who knew?

    in this vein remember that IIm7 comes up a lot in minor keys. And V9 too. Melodic minor, right? (II dorian b2, V Mixo b13 if you have to get into the convoluted terminology)

    I think theorists (or at least mass market theory books) often forget about this. There’s a lot of flexibility in minor. That melodic minor ‘ascending’ sound or jazz minor is all over late baroque music in descending lines. A jazz minor on E7 is found in this Kellner lute Phantasia I’m looking at for example. Bachs use of it is well known.

    In jazz, it’s all over... even caught Django at it the other day and it’s easy to stereotype him as mr harmonic minor.
    lol, I think he's playing in major. he's just... converting to minor (I just made that up, what a cool phrase!)

  17. #16

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    A jazz minor on E7 is found in this Kellner lute Phantasia I’m looking at for example

    Could you specify the piece and bars in reference?
    Thank you

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Could you specify the piece and bars in reference?
    Thank you
    I found it.... I think you mean this?
    Here it is not really melodic in the sense of classical music, it is in essence harmonic but using a cascade linear movement makes him use those sharps ...

    Actually I think that distinction between MM and HM in classical theory is too much stressed... thy try to be too much scientifucally precise.

    There are two poles harmonic and melodic and in that kind of music they both are present... but one is always sort of prevalent and moves another.
    At the same time melody is always a reality of a presence... and harmony per se is an idea, a plot...


    they both can function differently.... true is that MM shows in stepwise movement but this is just what is in the surface.
    Essentially it can be harmonic in its meaning in context

    And NM in most cases works harmonically even when it is melodic in texture..


    I would say that 'ascending MM' is when it is almost exclusively melodic in context (no harmony implied through #6).
    Later maybe it could influence and provoke appearance of secondary dominant to support that 6# harmonically.

    PS
    Bach on such contexts as with Kellner here often builds up more complex harmonic mo elements on one pedal bass (he is not melodic there in the basis either).
    Attached Images Attached Images R - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - 6 - b7 - R What would you call this? I play it over Ami7-screenshot_20210327-092429_chrome-jpg