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  1. #1

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    Or, 'why a little music theory can be a dangerous thing.'
    Adam Neely explains.


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    A link to the Ethan Hein blogpost on blues tonality, mentioned in Part 4 of the video above.

    Blues tonality | The Ethan Hein Blog

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Or, 'why a little music theory can be a dangerous thing.'
    Adam Neely explains.

    Delicious!

  5. #4

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    An assortments of E?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    A link to the Ethan Hein blogpost on blues tonality, mentioned in Part 4 of the video above.

    Blues tonality | The Ethan Hein Blog
    Well worth the read. My personal take? Damned straight!

  7. #6

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    Too tired to listen to a 17' video...or read blog posts...

    Isn't it just a cycle of 5ths?

    C....G
    G....D
    D....A
    A....E

    Who cares what key it's in?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Too tired to listen to a 17' video...or read blog posts...

    Isn't it just a cycle of 5ths?

    C....G
    G....D
    D....A
    A....E

    Who cares what key it's in?
    I know a few guitarists that have to care; They can only play in the key of E!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Too tired to listen to a 17' video...or read blog posts...

    Isn't it just a cycle of 5ths?

    C....G
    G....D
    D....A
    A....E

    Who cares what key it's in?
    Exactly. Why overcomplicate it?

  10. #9

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    I found the video entertaining.

    Its most definitely an E Blues.

  11. #10

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    joke warning:

    The C and G chords are borrowed from Em (bVI and bIII)
    the parallel minor of E major. D and A are bVII and IV of E mixolydian.

  12. #11

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    I enjoyed the video and found it worth the time. Neely is a smart guy with a good sense of humor.

    He's not trying to overcomplicate.
    Rather, he's, uh, un-complicating it. ;o)
    That's a main point of Ehan Hein's blog post: blues is its own thing (and blues is more than just I-IV-V).

  13. #12

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    Adam ics such an agreeable smart-ass
    Also, I really like his openness towards all styles of music. He got me hooked on Beyoncé's "Single Ladies".. and that is saying something

  14. #13

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    These youtubers are time vampires. Lure you in with an interesting title, then it's just blah blah blah, sometimes they never even make it to the point just "Tune in to my next video where we continue this discussion" except it's not a discussion, it's completely one sided.

    I'm surprised at my own strong opinion here.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen View Post
    These youtubers are time vampires. Lure you in with an interesting title, then it's just blah blah blah, sometimes they never even make it to the point just "Tune in to my next video where we continue this discussion" except it's not a discussion, it's completely one sided.

    I'm surprised at my own strong opinion here.
    "Those youtubers..." quite a generalization given there are about 50 million of them.
    Generally, I find Adam Neely very much anti-blickbaity if that makes sense. He very precisely answers the question stated in the title of the video.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I enjoyed the video and found it worth the time. Neely is a smart guy with a good sense of humor.

    He's not trying to overcomplicate.
    Rather, he's, uh, un-complicating it. ;o)
    That's a main point of Ehan Hein's blog post: blues is its own thing (and blues is more than just I-IV-V).
    "Blues is its own thing"

    This.^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I strongly recommend the Ehan Hein article. It corrects a few misconceptions regarding the Blues.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74 View Post
    "Blues is its own thing"

    This.^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I strongly recommend the Ehan Hein article. It corrects a few misconceptions regarding the Blues.
    I pasted it into a Word document (minus the pictures of the videos) and printed it for ready reference.

  18. #17

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    "Tymoczko immediately follows his discussion of blues with the example of jazz improviser Wayne Marsh playing an E major chord over E-flat major tonality. He is no doubt correct that Marsh is intentionally violating his listeners’ harmonic expectations in order to create tension. However, few blues players believe themselves to be playing intentionally “wrong” notes; quite to the contrary."
    From the Hein blog (pretty exhaustive review)

    Still with the "wrong notes" perspective? I do stuff like this all the time from a jazz perspective and certainly don't consider it as intentionally violating listeners' harmonic expectations, and I don't agree with the suggested implication that both jazz and blues musicians do it, but that the jazzers know better and bluesers don't.

    For example, Tenderly (Eb).
    At the end of the first time through the A section its finishes by heading for Ebmaj7 by way of Fm and Bb(7).
    So ...Fm Bb(7) Ebmaj.

    The move Fm Bb Eb is a "2-5-1" here and it sustains a strong tonality of Eb as the target throughout. Playing "E stuff" within an "Eb tonality" can be just fine, even very beautiful if I help it sound that way... that's our musical purpose, right?

    The common temptation might be to play the Bb as 6x6433 so Bb Ab B D G so "Bb(13)b9".

    A sound I like to play there for that Bb chord is 6x6454 so Bb Ab B E Ab so the pretty name "BM13sus4/Bb".
    However, this is really disguising how close it is to E/Bb, showing the "wrong" E chord sound emerging.

    If you just test play Fm E Ebmaj the E chord sounds not terrible vanilla jazz OK, just a slight harmonic jilt.
    However, accompanying the raw E major with a Bb bottom by E/Bb is better.
    Bb(13)b9 is very nice, and the ugly E chord sound and symbol are gone, replaced with a rootless G major on top.
    BM13sus4/Bb is very much nicer in spite of bringing back the E major sound, but at least the name is prettier without mentioning it.

    Of course too nice may not be quite right in every situation.
    The extremely nicest might be to play that Bb chord as a move from Bb(13)b9 into BM13sus4/Bb.

  19. #18

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    Warne not Wayne, Mister Hein.

  20. #19
    That was good/interesting! I always thought it was in E, but...

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues View Post
    ... Hendrix wasn't thinking in terms of theory when he wrote it.
    Jimi didn't write it. It's a song by Billy Roberts and Jimi covered it.

  22. #21

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    I loved this, thanks Mark !

    "A little theory can be dangerous" ... I left the article thinking a lot of theory -can- totally undermine the music
    ..handle with care..
    We humans love our systems and they can be very helpful, but sometimes it just goes too far. It reminds me of the warning "test a small amount in a discrete area" -lol

    I learned something from the section on harmony, I never though about the major 7ths this way.

    Cheers,
    Mike

    Edit: the "wrong notes" ..hahaha.. seems to me some of the jazz guys helped build a genre with those notes. These days they're hip and if you don't use a few, you're "vanilla". I kinda wish that article had been picked up for publication, but then part of me is glad it wasn't .... mayhem may have ensued

  23. #22

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    To me it is is quite typical simple modal harmony... common in folk music, often in rock etc.

    It is E myxolidian harmony (if the changes are D, A, E)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlD View Post
    Jimi didn't write it. It's a song by Billy Roberts and Jimi covered it.
    Correct; Ray Charles didn't write Georgia on My Mind either.

    Yea, the latter is a sore spot for me! (ha ha).

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    Correct; Ray Charles didn't write Georgia on My Mind either.

    Yea, the latter is a sore spot for me! (ha ha).
    When people associate a singer with a song they aren't claiming the singer WROTE the song. They likely couldn't care less who wrote it. Elvis didn't write "Heartbreak Hotel" or "Hound Dog" or "All Shook Up" or "Love Me Tender" but those are all Elvis songs.

    I wrote a song called "Sinatra Songs" and the chorus goes: "When night comes punching like ten King Kongs / I beat it back with Sinatra songs. / When I'm in the tank / I dial up Frank." The verses are made up of song titles and lyrics. Frank didn't write any of them. But they are "Sinatra songs" in the sense intended and that confuses no one.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    When people associate a singer with a song they aren't claiming the singer WROTE the song. They likely couldn't care less who wrote it. Elvis didn't write "Heartbreak Hotel" or "Hound Dog" or "All Shook Up" or "Love Me Tender" but those are all Elvis songs.

    I wrote a song called "Sinatra Songs" and the chorus goes: "When night comes punching like ten King Kongs / I beat it back with Sinatra songs. / When I'm in the tank / I dial up Frank." The verses are made up of song titles and lyrics. Frank didn't write any of them. But they are "Sinatra songs" in the sense intended and that confuses no one.
    I don't agree; The people that mentioned this (some were famous singers) clearly were under the impression that Charles wrote the song. Either way, I still find not knowing who wrote a song, when one says the song is one of their favorites, as being clueless, but that is because I feel songwriters don't get enough credit.

  27. #26

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    Or royalties, these days.

  28. #27

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    I for one am sorta bummed to see this controversy petering out. When I first saw this thread I was hoping for something more like:

    What is the James Bond chord?

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlD View Post
    Jimi didn't write it. It's a song by Billy Roberts and Jimi covered it.
    Right Carl. I realized that I had mistyped and edited my post shortly after rereading it.



  30. #29

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    enjoyed the video and found it worth the time. Neely is a smart guy with a good sense of humor.

    He's not trying to overcomplicate.
    Rather, he's, uh, un-complicating it. ;o)
    That's a main point of Ehan Hein's blog post: blues is its own thing (and blues is more than just I-IV-V).
    Mark, I should say I had not watch the video before I typed my answer here
    Now I did. Well he is a a smart guy but I do not like this style of video blogging common today - too much audience oriented and often not that deep really as tries to seem. His speculation on 'theory' seemed to me superficious and even wrong , definitely to hook some focus audiences. And also I think he knows that.
    Tbh I have the feeling that these kind of things (like Rick Beato too) seem to be educating (and even helpful to some in some cotexts) but in an overall cultural effect they are just entertainment in disguise and lead to exterminstion of real knowledge and thought .

    Also I didn't like obvious feeling that they try to sell it. But sales seem to become common trend these days.

    Yes... pretty heavy judgement maybe but this is honest

    Actually I remember it was discussed here ... the song I mean.

    And I played it then and original version too .... and my answer here was somewhat similar to my answer then:then I said it was sort of blues... and forgot it... now I said it was folky simple modal harmony on E myxolydian.. which all actually describes ... blues either.
    Or myxilidion of every chord with some domination of E ... also through modal logic of pitch inertion... on guitar it is lower in open shapes.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I don't agree; The people that mentioned this (some were famous singers) clearly were under the impression that Charles wrote the song. Either way, I still find not knowing who wrote a song, when one says the song is one of their favorites, as being clueless, but that is because I feel songwriters don't get enough credit.

    Yeah ... That is the thing. Neither Elvis or Frank are known for writing songs. Whatever the Elvis or Frank song everyone knows that they didn't write it and thus "It's an Elvis song" or "a Sinatra song" means that their version is the definite version.

    Ray Charles wrote most of his material and thus many think that his cover of Georgia is actually his.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    Yeah ... That is the thing. Neither Elvis or Frank are known for writing songs. Whatever the Elvis or Frank song everyone knows that they didn't write it and thus "It's an Elvis song" or "a Sinatra song" means that their version is the definite version.

    Ray Charles wrote most of his material and thus many think that his cover of Georgia is actually his.
    I actually saw/heard a few times in quite formal context (like TV show):
    'Fly me To The Moon' and 'My Way' by Frank Sinatra...
    And in the army band I saw an arrangement of My Way sais 'music by F.Sinatra'

    With Ray I think - though he wrote a lot of his stuff himself - he did plenty of covers... and I think common popular logics is the same as with Elvis and Frank
    Many think that 'You Give Your Hand To Me', 'Unchain My Heart', is also Ray Charles' songs...

    It is the particular perfomance style of an artist that makes people associate the song with him.. his personality is so strong that he creates an artistic world of his own and most of the things that comes in stay their as his.


    The only exception is when they cover something that was already very strong and individual in performance originally...
    for example it is hard to associate Eleanor Rigbey, Let It Be or Yesterday with Ray Charles because their indentity is strongly connected with The Beatles unique voice... (unless of course someone never heard of The Beatles at all)

  33. #32

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    'Hey Joe was a song written by Billie Roberts and first recorded in 1961.'



    Baby Please Don't Go to Town was a song written by Niela Miller, then girlfriend of Billie Roberts, in 1955.



    Full story here

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    'Hey Joe was a song written by Billie Roberts and first recorded in 1961.'



    Baby Please Don't Go to Town was a song written by Niela Miller, then girlfriend of Billie Roberts, in 1955.



    Full story here
    Ah, Da Biz! Swimming with sharks while bleeding is safer. Thank you for posting this, Litterick. The full story link is most informative.
    To those of our friends who deem this whole thread rather silly, I again recommend the Ehan Hein link cited above.

  35. #34

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    Hey Joe always sounds to me as like it's a bridge. But missing the verse and chorus. Pretty neat. So, the key aint even there when thinking like that ... could be A

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I don't agree; The people that mentioned this (some were famous singers) clearly were under the impression that Charles wrote the song. Either way, I still find not knowing who wrote a song, when one says the song is one of their favorites, as being clueless, but that is because I feel songwriters don't get enough credit.
    We disagree. That's fine. I'm a songwriter and this doesn't bother me at all.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    We disagree. That's fine. I'm a songwriter and this doesn't bother me at all.
    Like Lobomov said, Ray Charles did write a lot of songs and was a very good songwriter. In this way he is a lot different than singers like Sinatra and Elvis. Thus it is understandable why many people would just assume Charles wrote some of the songs he made into major hits (as well as his "take" of these songs being first rate).

  38. #37

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    Barry Manilow did not write 'I Write the Songs'; Bruce Johnston did. Manilow wrote many other songs.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Tbh I have the feeling that these kind of things (like Rick Beato too) seem to be educating (and even helpful to some in some contexts) but in an overall cultural effect they are just entertainment in disguise and lead to extermination of real knowledge and thought .
    I agree with the entertainment part. I'm fine with that. Entertainment is not a dirty word (or pejorative) to me.



    How this might lead to the extermination of real knowledge is something else altogether and I will leave you to worry about that.

  40. #39

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    I agree with the entertainment part. I'm fine with that. Entertainment is not a dirty word (or pejorative) to me.
    I am not against entertainment either.
    I shoud say thereis some ambiguity in English word 'entertainment'. It means also and involving, engaging... which is not bad at all.
    I think that French 'divertissement' (as well as Russian 'razvlecheniye' meaning more as 'diversion' or 'dalliance') really describes what I mean.


    But I guess they go too far with it those days... after all you cannot and should not try to be liked by everyone.

    I can understand that standup comic or circus clown is succesful because he is the most entertaining but when people try to turn every topic in entertainment to gain success ... it is just wrong.
    It makes the general level lower and lower.
    For me the general problem of all those video blogs is that they do not actually have solid contents.
    I know people who teach much deeper and better - and it is not only that they cannot handle modern tools, they cannot handle thet model of attitude when everything shoudl be exchanged into small coins. To be frank they just would never have thought to spend so much time to make such a long and technically elaborated video on such a topic, this is a question of a few seconds explanaton.
    It is ok for a 'kitchen talk' (as we say it here) with the friends but not more really...

    They have to find topics and to figure out how to make it saleable.
    It concerns avry ares - not only music...
    When I was a kid there was only one travel program on our TV it was hosted byt the guy who was ex military doctor, who made a carrier in austraunts training program, was a biologist, spoke a few languages and participated in Thor Heyerdahls 'Ra' and 'Ra-2' travels... yes the pace of program was slow those days but when he spoke it was coherent deep speech of an educated person.
    He did not speak aout extremely complex things and you never had a feeling that he tries to sell you something or to exchange complex things with simplifications.
    And today travel shows - mostly video bloggers that can say: 'That palace here you know it was just 'wow!'

    My teacher of musical theory could sit at the piano play any (I mean any!) Mozarts and Meethoven symhony, quatet or sonata from any place - not for competition or showoff - but just becaus ehe was in love with it, he was educated like that...
    Casanova and Voltaire could exchange verses of Tasso by heart not because they tried to learn it by heart on purpose but becasue it was the level of entertainment those days. The just knew it.

    I actually was lucky to meet a few people of that 'old school' of though and education who has dignity but no snobbism.

    My friend Boris Yofee is probably greatest composer living... he began to record his daily quartes on piano about half a year ago (though he has quite serious discography). You know how many subscribers he has? 56.
    I do not expect him to be as popular as Holywood actors but he definitely deserves much more more than some 'stars' of modern composition.
    And to me it is one of the greatest things that is happening in our times. If something is worth to be left after us this is the thing,

    The audience should feel you are smart but not too much - otherwise they will feel insulted (same concerns modern art by the way).
    So it is all for sales after all... but not every culture is based on commercial realtionship as a model and not everything shoudl be measured that way.

    The greatest respect to the pople is to expect them to be your level and to communicate with them correcpondingly.

    I hope you do not take me wrong...

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    Yeah ... That is the thing. Neither Elvis or Frank are known for writing songs. Whatever the Elvis or Frank song everyone knows that they didn't write it and thus "It's an Elvis song" or "a Sinatra song" means that their version is the definite version.

    Ray Charles wrote most of his material and thus many think that his cover of Georgia is actually his.
    I have a problem with this. Yes, Ray wrote a lot of songs. Some of them were very good but many of them were so-so at best. (His singing and playing were never so-so but, for example, "This Little Girl of Mine" borrows too heavily from the gospel song "This Little Light Of Mine.")
    If you look at the songs he is best known for, he didn't write many of them.

    A short list:

    I Can't Stop Loving You (DonGibson)<<<Ray's biggest hit
    Hit the Road, Jack (Percy Mayfield)<<<<Ray's second biggest hit
    Crying Time (Buck Owens)
    Take These Chains From My Heart (HyHeath & Fred Rose)
    (The) Mess Around (Ahmet Artegun)
    Busted (Harlan Howard)
    Hide 'Nor Hair (Morty Craft & PercyMayfield)
    Unchain My Heart (Bobby Sharp)
    You Don't Know Me (Cindy Walker &Eddy Arnold)
    Night Time is the Right Time (NappyBrown)
    One Mint Julep (Rudy Toombs)
    Let's Go Get Stoned (Ashford &Simpson)
    That Lucky Old Sun (Beasley Smith)
    Seven Spanish Angels (Troy Seals &Eddie Setser)
    It Should've Been Me (Memphis Curtis)<<< Not to be confused with the Yvonne Fair hit from the '70s.

    Not to mention "America the Beautiful," "Georgia On My Mind", "Yesterday, and "Eleanor Rigby."

    He did write "What'd I Say?", "I Got A Woman", "Them That Got" and "Hallelujah, I Love Her So," and they are all good songs. But Ray was not primarily (or even secondarily) a songwriter.










  42. #41

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    Jimi who ?


  43. #42

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    Incidentally , it's very helpful of Adam Neely to put the answer to the question posed by the video title, in the thumbnail . Saves us the trouble of watching the video . The internet is starting to make me hate people that explain music . Half the joy is working it out for yourself .

  44. #43

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    This touches on a seldom mentioned aspect of what constitutes "Rock Tonality". As a kid I learned traditional music theory from a teacher that was also teaching me Rock Guitar. Learning all the triads in keys and their function (as in Functional Harmony) often didn't square with the songs I was learning. I think I probably asked why songs like Hey Joe could not be explained by Functional Harmony, but never got a straight answer. I looked at many, many books trying to find the answer and was perplexed as to why there simply was no neat explanation anywhere regarding why Rock songs contain the chords they do.

    So I figured it out myself - you can play major chords based on all of the minor pentatonic notes, as well as the b6th (C over E pentatonic). I probably wrote 100 songs as a teenager just experimenting with those 6 chords, and was always amazed that noodling E min pent BS over the top of it all always worked! Of course, then I wanted to figure out what to do with those pesky minor chords!

    Ah, the world was so much simpler then...

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    This touches on a seldom mentioned aspect of what constitutes "Rock Tonality". As a kid I learned traditional music theory from a teacher that was also teaching me Rock Guitar. Learning all the triads in keys and their function (as in Functional Harmony) often didn't square with the songs I was learning. I think I probably asked why songs like Hey Joe could not be explained by Functional Harmony, but never got a straight answer. I looked at many, many books trying to find the answer and was perplexed as to why there simply was no neat explanation anywhere regarding why Rock songs contain the chords they do.

    So I figured it out myself - you can play major chords based on all of the minor pentatonic notes, as well as the b6th (C over E pentatonic). I probably wrote 100 songs as a teenager just experimenting with those 6 chords, and was always amazed that noodling E min pent BS over the top of it all always worked! Of course, then I wanted to figure out what to do with those pesky minor chords!

    Ah, the world was so much simpler then...
    "Rock Tonality." There should be a paper akin to Hein's "Blues Tonality."
    I did the same thing as a teen, played power chords and soloed with minor pentatonics. (And there's NOTHING wrong with that---it's a powerful thing.)

    As for minor chords: Peter Green! ;o)


  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Too tired to listen to a 17' video...or read blog posts...

    Isn't it just a cycle of 5ths?

    C....G
    G....D
    D....A
    A....E

    Who cares what key it's in?
    It's easier to label the chords in the key of C:

    C is the I

    G is the V

    D is the V of V

    A is the V of V of V

    E is the V of V of V of V

    If you think it's in E:

    E is I

    A is IV

    D is IV of IV

    G is IV of IV of IV

    C is IV of IV of VI of IV

    Now, from a modal rock POV, play E minor pentatonic over all of it!

    BTW, the cool bassline helps make the tune.

  47. #46

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    If our friend Margo is singing it, it’s in a key about 5 steps from where it should be. :-/

  48. #47

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    How about another Joe?? You recognize that voice...



    As one poster wrote, best cowbell-centric version of the song.

  49. #48

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    Then there’s Love...sounds like the Byrds and The Clash had a love child...


  50. #49

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    "Hey Joe" is in the key of E major.
    The form is A A A ... as variations.
    The song is all major chords only.
    Relative Roman is bVI bIII bVII IV I.

    Theory of hearing the changes could be either of:
    a series of five changes of descending by fourths,
    a series of five changes of ascending by fifths, so
    both of these cadences point toward ending on E.

    Because of the harmonic changes directing toward E,
    all four chords leading into the E accept the sound of
    playing minor pentatonic (this is a blues / rock song).

    Although the Hendrix intro is E minor pentatonic, and
    rarely do I hear anyone play those double stops right,
    the signature riff at the end of each E segment is too.

    There's a pickup riff before the C that is a double stop
    major pentatonic of D. This is a suggestion to the way
    the song might be played - using major pentatonic riff
    ideas for each of the four chords leading toward the E.
    So, C major pentatonic double stop riffs, then G major
    pentatonic double stops, and likewise on the D and A.

    E minor pentatonic may be reserved for the E chords,
    and the body of the cadences may support the major
    pentatonic expression of the four cadence chords, so
    to comprise some ideas with which to make manifest
    variations over the repeating aspect of the song form.

    Of course for main solos, the E minor pentatonic may
    be played over the whole progression as fearlessly as
    you might desire - this tune is quite well-built for that!