Does this have a name: skating close to the key?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I know quoting myself is a bit odd, but I've been thinking about this statement I made because it's related to BDLH's approach I think.

I don't play scales over chords, but I DO use scales to organize notes and chords on the fretboard as I play. Correct me if I'm wrong BDLH, but isn't that what in underpinning your method here, i.e. it's easier to use the C major scale as the basic interstate highway running through the key of C land, but you can still take off ramps to visit various towns along the way. You do that by tweaking the scale degrees to turn them into the appropriate chord tones for chords that don't strictly fit the diatonic harmonization of the C major scale.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm not playing three octave scales up and down the neck! Originally, I was thinking of the situation where you try to make up a new melody on the fly, but keep it more-or-less in C. I know you can analyze any one clutch of notes as the Transmogrian hyper-locrian mode, but that misses the point entirely.

[Reg]

Do you have a name for tweaking pitches, or a system or explanation of why the notes you tweak sound good to your ear, or do your choices stem from conditioning rather than inherent inclinations. I do like your term Transmogrian hyper-locrian...way cool.
Modal interchange started from the custom of substitution of chords from the parallel minor or major in traditional tonal harmony, pre-Bach. Modern use of that principle of mode change was extended to embrace harmonies on all scale degrees and in all modes. Every chordal structure became available on every scale degree through substitution of mode (modal interchange), and wasn't subject to restrictions of chromatic alteration from traditional tonal harmony.( old classical and earlier voice leading and root motions of 4th or 5th prescribed and accepted harmonic progressions).
The use of MI accelerated during Romantic period,( Debussy, Ravel). Combined with another system of tonal organization from early 1900's termed Parallelism, helped explain why some chromatic alteration sounded tonal, or at least acceptable. When you hear those constant structure triads in pop or rock ...there you go.
Western music is built on very physical principles, (acoustics). There are many explanations to anything... Modal interchange has been around for four centuries. Check out "The Diatonic Modes in Modern Music", John Vincent, around 1974, "Techniques of Twentieth Century Composition", by Leon Dallin, don't know the year, it's older. There are tons more but I'm trying to keep this simple. I do understand these principles there not complicated.
Just a note , guitar is not the greatest instrument to try and understand music on, is kind of like tunnel vision. Reg

[fep]

Hey Reg,

I remember in my music theory that I loved the chapter that explained 'Modal Borrowing'. It turned on my lights in my head.

For those that don't know; Modal Borrowing is using chords from another related mode in your composition.

For instance let's say you are in C maj. Your diatonic chords are

C Dm Em F G Am Bhalfdim

The chords from C harmonic minor are:

Cm Dhalfdim Ebaug Fm G7 Abmaj Bdim

So the usage of this principal is that if you use one of those C harmonic minor chords in your C major composition you are using Modal borrowing.

The tune A Child is Born... I loved the sound of those 1st two chords that repeat several times. I didn't like that I didn't have a framework for understanding it though. Now I do.

Bbmaj7 Ebm/Bb Bbmaj7 Ebm/Bb

That's modal borrowing, i.e. borrowing the Ebm or the iv chord from the parallel minor key.

So Reg, I got sidetracked from my question...

Is modal interchange another name for modal borrowing?

[Reg]

Hey fep...from your explanation yes, I don't think I've heard that term, but maybe it's a version of. I first started hearing the term modal interchange in early 70's, maybe 68 or 69 relating to jazz. Basically the same chords but with different set of diatonic harmonic values. As I said you can find references to modal harmony centuries ago. In jazz I've not heard the term modal borrowing, but is very understandable and I'm thrilled to here someone explain what they mean in musical terms...Thanks Reg

[Reg]

Hey check out any W. Shorter tune... usually use of modal interchange. Thanks Reg

[timscarey]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm not playing three octave scales up and down the neck! Originally, I was thinking of the situation where you try to make up a new melody on the fly, but keep it more-or-less in C. I know you can analyze any one clutch of notes as the Transmogrian hyper-locrian mode, but that misses the point entirely.

Nice,

I tend to call that "playing an inside melody" or "as many common tones as possible"

I don't have a name for it except "awareness of the useable common tones" which would hopefully be learned in conjunction with a fair amount of "awareness of the useable uncommon tones"

I find that the more you stick to common tones between chords you sort of "tie the chords together" using the melody, whereas the use of uncommon tones would serve to expose the difference between two harmonic structures.

Of course, this only needs to be considered when you leave a strict diatonic collection of 7 notes.

Whoever's theories you use to increase your awareness of the common and uncommon useable notes is up to you. Modal interchange sounds like a good route, I like to think "what are my possible modes, and which one has more notes in common with the last group of notes I played" I do this by creating "mode shells"

Minor 1-2-b3-4-5 pretty much always. the rest are my "choice notes" TBD by the previous melodic/harmonic fragments, and the desired "inside/outside" sound.

Major 1-2-3-6-7
Dom 1-3-b7

word.

[Reg]

Hey gang... What was the point of this thread, I'm not quite sure.... Are we trying to come up with a way of using our "ears" to make on the spot decisions to decipher which notes are correct or incorrect when soloing through specific chord progressions... or are we trying to explain why our "ears" make those decisions... Thanks Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

My point? I was wondering if this has a name, and if others had some other similar ideas.

[Stringbean]

I'm already referring to it as "the big daddy observation". For when I run into those chords that shouldn't be...but sound so right.

[franco6719]

Good thread!

Coltrane, and probably many others before and after, used this a great deal as a chord substitution in his soloing, in the pre-Giant Steps period:

orig: Dm7 | G7 | Cma7
sub: Dm7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Cma7

Now I see the theoretical basis for that anyway.

Also, I remember reading in one of Bill Leavitt's books about an approach to improvisation that sounds exactly like what BDLH is describing in the OP. He didn't call it anything in particular. He just said something like "You can stay in the key of the tune and then adjust the notes of the (major) scale to fit the chords that fall outside the key (or key center)."