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  1. #1

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    Or is it "synthetic" or "exotic"? Spell it in any order or mode, but what is it? The notes are:

    D E F G A Bb C C#

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Or is it "synthetic" or "exotic"? Spell it in any order or mode, but what is it? The notes are:

    D E F G A Bb C C#
    It is natural minor with a chromatic lead-tone/fill-in added...

    I do not find anything 'exotic' or 'synthetic' in it.

    To me scales mostly do not have colour on their own.. I believe we mostly associate then with some harmonic context even unconsiously and imply relationships.

    But I am not sure what you hear... you could make an example of a harmonic/melodic sound you hear in it..

  4. #3
    Jonah - thanks and I know, that is very practical and traditional of you. Call something what it is, right?

    But I am curious if there is a "jazz school approved 8-tone scale goofy-ass name".


    Let me see what I can do about un upload later today.

  5. #4

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    ....
    D E F G A Bb C C#
    If write the notes this way:

    D E F G A Bb C Db

    ... and rearrange the notes this way:

    F G A Bb C Db D E

    ...and notice these two arpeggios:


    F A C D (major 6th)
    G Bb Db E (diminished)

    It looks like something Barry Harry would talk about.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Jonah - thanks and I know, that is very practical and traditional of you. Call something what it is, right?

    But I am curious if there is a "jazz school approved 8-tone scale goofy-ass name".


    Let me see what I can do about un upload later today.
    If you wish you can call it an F bebop major scale...

    I guess you relate that c-c#-d with those bebop scale chromatisms? Or not?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Yes.. I thought about it.
    C7b9 sound.. sort of... or C9
    Or both..
    Or none and just cromatism

    Well anyway it is F major bebop scale if you look for conventional nomenclature.

    I personally would not think of scale at all in that context but it is me..

    In the exercise there are just passing chromatic notes...

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yes.. I thought about it.

    Well anyway it is F major bebop scale if you look for conventional nomenclature.

    .
    Thanks, it is indeed. I don't think of Bebop scales - and their "modes" that readily (yet).

  10. #9

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    It is D minor that they add a passing note the C# Basicly moving the 7th to a major

  11. #10
    Thanks Jaxon.

    Given that it's a C7 (V7), and in a jazz context it makes more sense to me as F Major Bebop. The alternative analysis is some kind of goofy Mixolydian, given that it has a b9 and natural 9.

    At any rate, it has a cool sound when played as written. Finale exports a WAV file but I can't upload that format here. Too much of a disk hog I'm guessing...

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    The attachment calls it a complex pattern.
    It's in key of C major using sharps for ascending and flats for descending.

    C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G D Db
    then an octave lower

    C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G E Db C

    Notice the D vs E near the end of the lines.
    Notice the context is stated C7.
    Notice there is no A note; an A natural would sound Cmaj6th and an Ab would sound Caug in context of C.
    The C C# D sounds like a classical ornament...

    If you treat the C# as an ornament and omit it, then things happen depending on what is done with the missing A note:
    If you allow the natural A, you can have scales F major, F ionian, D natural minor, and G dorian.
    If you allow the A to be Ab, you can have F melodic minor.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Thanks, it is indeed. I don't think of Bebop scales - and their "modes" that readily (yet).
    Note this C# comes always on 'and'

  14. #13

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    The question may be from a Jazz context but the
    attachment score may be Classical (it is for viola).

  15. #14

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    It does look classical - except classical scores don't usually do chord symbols!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar

    Given that it's a C7 (V7), and in a jazz context it makes more sense to me as F Major Bebop. The alternative analysis is some kind of goofy Mixolydian, given that it has a b9 and natural 9.
    You can insert a chromatic note into a scale for effect but it doesn't make it some sort of 'new scale'. That's the way of confusion. The only scale that has the notes in your example is the F major bebop - F G A B C Db D E F. It's not 'some sort of Mixolydian'!

    But it doesn't mean you can't play the mixolydian mode of F major and stick some other note in it if you want. We often do that without thinking about it anyway because it's easier to finger. I mean, you could play E F Gb G A Bb B C over a C7 but god knows what it is!

    So, to keep to your example, the notes you posted are the F major scale (perfectly right over C7) with the added Db. They've decided that's called the F major bebop scale. (All these bebop scales are manufactured anyway).

    By the way, it wouldn't work if the chord was a C7b9. The natural D would throw it out.

  17. #16

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    Thr excercise in PDF have C# as strictly passig.. it is not about C7b9... to me C7b9 should sound with b9 stressed.
    Melodic passing note on weak beat is not enough to get the colour of dom7b9 for my ears...

    F Bebop major scale motives fits perfectly well if one treats scale as melodic pattern.

    I would rather think of chor tones and extentions with passing notes but I can uderstand scale thinling as linear approach too here.

    Notice there is no A note; an A natural would sound Cmaj6th and an Ab would sound Caug in context of C.
    The C C# D sounds like a classical ornament...
    I do nto think that A and Ab would not just abstractly call mot C6 or Caug sound... To my ears it to C6 colour you really need to have 6th stable and unresolved. Or at leasy accented resolved with some delay like in Stand by Me first bar


    The question may be from a Jazz context but the
    attachment score may be Classical (it is for viola).
    I think Viola in this case is last name, the file is called Joseph Viola.
    The pattern sounds totally jazz language.

    Besides it would be crazy to notate score for viola like this)))
    Too high and treble clef... really not conventional)))

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Or is it "synthetic" or "exotic"? Spell it in any order or mode, but what is it? The notes are:

    D E F G A Bb C C#
    Its a fusion of D natural and harmonic minor. You often hear lines using both C and C# over an A7b9 chord for instance.

    I use this scale a lot, but I usually think of it as a C7 (mixolydian) scale with an option to use C#. In this case I would most frequently use it before a D chord of some kind.

    This is my default way of playing a leading tone dim - I or a minor II V I

    It’s kind of the standard way to handle this progression in bop

    Barry Harris describes this as playing the C7 into the third of A7. C7 is a good choice over Em7b5

  19. #18

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    Oh yeah, it also has the same notes as F major sixth diminished

    Scales are useless without some idea of how to use them to create music though. Schools of thought vary.

    Anyway the attached document doesn’t look like the way I would use the scale.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    The attachment calls it a complex pattern.
    It's in key of C major using sharps for ascending and flats for descending.

    C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G D Db
    then an octave lower

    C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G E Db C

    Notice the D vs E near the end of the lines.
    Notice the context is stated C7.
    Notice there is no A note; an A natural would sound Cmaj6th and an Ab would sound Caug in context of C.
    The C C# D sounds like a classical ornament...

    If you treat the C# as an ornament and omit it, then things happen depending on what is done with the missing A note:
    If you allow the natural A, you can have scales F major, F ionian, D natural minor, and G dorian.
    If you allow the A to be Ab, you can have F melodic minor.
    It's not in the key of C major. Rather, it's a "no key signature" format that shows all cautionary/courtesy accidentals.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Thr excercise in PDF have C# as strictly passig.. it is not about C7b9... to me C7b9 should sound with b9 stressed.
    Melodic passing note on weak beat is not enough to get the colour of dom7b9 for my ears...

    F Bebop major scale motives fits perfectly well if one treats scale as melodic pattern.

    I would rather think of chor tones and extentions with passing notes but I can uderstand scale thinling as linear approach too here.



    I do nto think that A and Ab would not just abstractly call mot C6 or Caug sound... To my ears it to C6 colour you really need to have 6th stable and unresolved. Or at leasy accented resolved with some delay like in Stand by Me first bar




    I think Viola in this case is last name, the file is called Joseph Viola.
    The pattern sounds totally jazz language.

    Besides it would be crazy to notate score for viola like this)))
    Too high and treble clef... really not conventional)))
    Right again.

    It's an excerpt (labeled "Complex" by me) in Finale, of an exercise that Joseph Viola included in his chord studies book for saxophone, Berklee Press. The example right next to this one - still on C7, has an exercise with G Minor Bebop, 4th mode. These scale runs come at the end of some studies on C7, most of which are centered on approach notes - chromatic from below, scale tone from above, then both. Then some wider interval approaches and enclosures that sound a little more "out". Finally these scale runs which are not vanilla mixolydian.

    That should add some context. Sorry to have confused.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Oh yeah, it also has the same notes as F major sixth diminished

    Scales are useless without some idea of how to use them to create music though. Schools of thought vary.

    Anyway the attached document doesn’t look like the way I would use the scale.
    It has a very "out" sound the way it's used here. More post-bop I would say.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    (All these bebop scales are manufactured anyway).

    Yeah, manufactured. Dan Haerle called them "synthetic". Same idea.

    I guess any scale is, until it's used enough and thus puts on some weight.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Or is it "synthetic" or "exotic"? Spell it in any order or mode, but what is it? The notes are:

    D E F G A Bb C C#
    the major 6 diminished scale...this was a test right?

  25. #24
    No, was not a test but if it makes it more fun that’s OK.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    the major 6 diminished scale...this was a test right?
    have a look at the musical example. It’s not that kind of vibe.

    Which raises an interesting point; it’s not the notes always, often it’s the emphasis.