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  1. #1

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    (sheet music below this message) Hello, Bud Powell intro on everything happens to me, I don't understand this change from Cm7 chord to F#m7, does this have a name or something, what is the relation? Thanks .

    Last edited by Sonny Stitt; 12-11-2020 at 03:46 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    What is this change??-2222-png

  4. #3

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    it's called a tritone sub.

  5. #4

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    djg, I like your signature!

    Not sure I agree with the tritone sub analysis though. Shouldn't the context be considered? Yes, F# is a tritone away from C, but in context don't we usually look forward to the next change or the resolution to label what's happening? What follows that F#-7 in the OP's post?

    Here's the first phrase from a lead sheet:... What is this change??-screenshot_20201210-072446-png

  6. #5
    What is this change??-dsada-png
    Attached Images Attached Images What is this change??-dsda-png 

  7. #6
    Thanks for your answer, here is the full one, I didn't make this, it's from youtube

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    djg, I like your signature!

    Not sure I agree with the tritone sub analysis though. Shouldn't the context be considered? Yes, F# is a tritone away from C, but in context don't we usually look forward to the next change or the resolution to label what's happening? What follows that F#-7 in the OP's post?

    Here's the first phrase from a lead sheet:...
    OP asked about a specific place in the intro, not the actual tune. he also posted the audio

  9. #8

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    The audio link doesn't work for me. So maybe you're hearing that resolution from a tritone sub.

    But in the extended sheet music snip I am OK with calling the penultimate B7 a tritone sub for F, which is the dominant of the final Bb. And, for yuks, the partner ii of that sub, an F#m, is added the beat ahead.

    I'll see if I can dig up the recording.

    OK... I found it. Yes you can clearly hear that it goes up a tritone in that bar. But I don't hear it as a substitution. Perhaps because of what follows. And the last beat of the measure sounds more like a A7 with a bebop chromatic lick heading to the D minor.

  10. #9

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    It's how it sounds, not how it looks.

  11. #10

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    It's also not the only version.

    What is this change??-ehtm-jpg

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    The audio link doesn't work for me. So maybe you're hearing that resolution from a tritone sub.

    But in the extended sheet music snip I am OK with calling the penultimate B7 a tritone sub for F, which is the dominant of the final Bb. And, for yuks, the partner ii of that sub, an F#m, is added the beat ahead.

    I'll see if I can dig up the recording.

    OK... I found it. Yes you can clearly hear that it goes up a tritone in that bar. But I don't hear it as a substitution. Perhaps because of what follows. And the last beat of the measure sounds more like a A7 with a bebop chromatic lick heading to the D minor.
    not sure what you mean. yes, the line later takes a turn via A7. but there is an F#m7 lick where we would expect the Cm7 so the F#m7 subs for Cm7 in this place with the bass line mirrored a tritone apart. tritone subs are not limited to dominants.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    tritone subs are not limited to dominants.
    That's the fist time I've heard anyone suggest that. Maybe the JGO blog should be corrected.

  14. #13

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    It's an uncommon movement.

    The Cm7 in that context would often lead to an F7. But, he just did a ii V a bar earlier. So, maybe he looked to the next chord, Dm7b5.

    Dm7b5 has the same notes as Fm6. So, rather than hit the F7 and sound predictable, he finds another path.

    The F#m7 is not uncommon on the way to F7. Play F#m7 F7 Bbmaj7 and you'll hear the sound of a ii V I, more or less.

    It also voice leads nicely to an Fm6.

    I am confident that someone will propose a detailed theory based explanation that I probably won't be able to understand.

    Check out the current Peter Bernstein thread which presents some similar sorts of harmonic devices.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    That's the fist time I've heard anyone suggest that. Maybe the JGO blog should be corrected.
    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    tritone subs are not limited to dominants.
    gotta say, it’s unusual. There’s no tritone in the chord. So it would have to be implied ii/Vs from which the chord is lifted.
    Not out of bounds of course, as really the only thing that matters is what sounds good in context. But definitely unusual.

  16. #15

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    It looks like the F#m7 is a substitute for F7 alt. ie F7b9#5. F7 is the V of Cm7. It's quite common to think in terms of a minor or major chord a half tone above the dominant V chord to get the tension notes. It also segues quite nicely into the Dm7b5. The V of F#m7 is B7. A B9 is the same chord as Ebmin7b5, which is a half step above the Dm7b5. But that may be coincidental.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by coyote-1
    gotta say, it’s unusual. There’s no tritone in the chord. So it would have to be implied ii/Vs from which the chord is lifted.
    Not out of bounds of course, as really the only thing that matters is what sounds good in context. But definitely unusual.
    there are two kind of tritone subs:

    -chords that sub for each other because they share the same tritone, i.e. dominant chords
    -chords that are related to the dominant chord (namely the II chord and the IV chord) can also be replaced by the same chord a tritone away. because function trumps actual notes

    and like chuck norris, bud powell does not follow theory, he makes theory. so if he plays Cm7 and then the same lick a tritone away *he* teaches us that the principle of tritone substitution is not limited to dominant chords.

  18. #17

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    In C

    Db7 for G7

    Ab-7 Db7 for D-7 G7

    B711 for F7 (IV) ... F#-7 B7 (F IV)

  19. #18

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    Rhythm Changes Bridge a la Monty Alexander routine (see a ii V, then throw in a ii V tritone sub, bass player need not comply)

    || A-7 D7 | Eb-7 Ab7 | D-7 G7 | Ab-7 Db7 |
    | G-7 C7 | C#-7 F#7 | C-7 F7 | F#-7 B7 ||

  20. #19

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    Here's another one. Find one that makes sense to you. Piano players tend to put in all sorts of crazy things and make them sound okay. Best keep it simple.

    What is this change??-ehtm-2-jpg

    Here's a really good player but good luck copying that!


  21. #20

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    Bud Powell... You could learn more from these bars of music than a dozen theory books.... that’s why it’s best to go straight to the source and puzzle it out.

    Truth is it doesn’t matter why; the important thing if you like this sound, to get it in your playing.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Truth is it doesn’t matter why; the important thing if you like this sound, to get it in your playing.
    To state the obvious, yes. But this Theory sub-forum is a safe place for us nerds to present alternate analysis.

    I had a prof in my conservatory days who used to talk about "fresh tones". Sounds... maybe unexpected, that caught the attention of your ears and propelled the music forward. The response is visceral and we feel it. But as literate musicians, to communicate what we experience at those moments when we are away from our fiddles we use the commonly understood language of music theory.

    We each have our own lived experiences. I suppose my limited experience just never included looking backwards when calling anything a substitution.

    Was it the same prof? I can't recall, but as an impressionable youth I was also offered the idea that "if you can't hear it, it doesn't exist". Which I suppose is why 12 tone music never got much traction with me.

  23. #22

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    There is nothing unusual
    about
    C-7 F7| F#-7 B7| Bbmaj7|| it is common procedure for jazz pianists to insert the Tritone sub ii V

    thus
    C-7 F#-7 is the same move abbreviated

  24. #23
    Thank you all for your answers! I learned something I didn't know, which is the F#m7 - B7 - Bbmaj7 tritone substitution, thank you!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    There is nothing unusual
    about
    C-7 F7| F#-7 B7| Bbmaj7|| it is common procedure for jazz pianists to insert the Tritone sub ii V

    thus
    C-7 F#-7 is the same move abbreviated
    Good point about the tritone sub.

    I do find it unusual though to have a ii V, then another ii V in the key of the tritone. Then, the I chord. I can't think of a tune that does that.

    The transition from the V to the tritone ii is unusual.

  26. #25

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    It’s a reharmonization move sometimes known as "side slippin' ". There is a tune by Duke Pearson called "Disapproachment" which is another funny term for these chromatic borrowed ii V's




    These moves are usually done by pianists in the moment. They also will do a ii V move simply up a half step.
    For example
    4 bars of The "Work Song" like |G-7 | C7 | G-7 |C7|
    becomes:
    G-7 C7| Ab-7 Db7 | G-7 C7 | G-7 C7| In the moment...

    Bass player does not know when a pianist will do this, but can hear it happen and attempt to join in. If bass can't catch it then it still works. per Monty Alexander

  27. #26

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    Yea... I tend to see and hear at typical approach for playing. The tritone theory aspect is just old school expansion of traditional Tritone sub approach, (inverting actual tritone to create new Dom. chord)... but expanding to become tritone Root approach subs. And then also using Related Chords from Common Chord Patterns, in the example... II V's.

    And when actually playing many players... also expand the choice of Scales to create extensions with those subs from Chord Patterns... in the example, sounds like use of MM with use of II's and their related V's.

    Back in the 70's I would have just labeled as Contiguous II V's. Almost becomes constant structure application.

    When your performing, it's loose because goes by so fast the strong weak aspect almost takes control. But when arranging or composing... slows down enough to where you actually can apply detailed organization, the theory thing.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    It’s a reharmonization move sometimes known as "side slippin' ". There is a tune by Duke Pearson called "Disapproachment" which is another funny term for these chromatic borrowed ii V's




    These moves are usually done by pianists in the moment. They also will do a ii V move simply up a half step.
    For example
    4 bars of The "Work Song" like |G-7 | C7 | G-7 |C7|
    becomes:
    G-7 C7| Ab-7 Db7 | G-7 C7 | G-7 C7| In the moment...

    Bass player does not know when a pianist will do this, but can hear it happen and attempt to join in. If bass can't catch it then it still works. per Monty Alexander
    The ii V "up a half step" is commonly used in situations where the underlying ii V just continues for too long. The half step up feels like a kind of suspension and, to my ear, clearly wants to resolve back to the original ii V.

    In contrast, the ii V followed by the "tritone-ii-V", doesn't resolve coherently, to my ear. Which is why, I suspect, that I can't think of a song that does it. After the first ii V, say Gm7-C7, that C7 begs for resolution, most commonly to Fmajor, although lots of other things can happen.

    The tritone ii V is Dbm7-Gb7. I don't hear C7 as wanting to go to Dbm7. That's not to say that it can't possibly work -- just that it would require a very strong setting.

  29. #28

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    Bar 4 I Can’t Get Started
    Ab-7 Db7 | C

    the book called “Pocket Changes” shows “all the things you are” in bar 6 as
    | D-7 G7 Ab-7 Db7 | C... and the same type of thing again in bar 14

    Also Autumn Leaves bar 5 and 6
    A-7b5 | D7 | G- becomes
    A-7b5 D7 |Eb-7 Ab7 | G-
    Last edited by rintincop; 12-15-2020 at 05:44 PM.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Bar 4 I Can’t Get Started
    Ab-7 Db7 | C

    the book called “Pocket Changes” shows “all the things you are” in bar 6 as
    | D-7 G7 Ab-7 Db7 | and the same type of thing again in bar 14
    Good reference! Usually it's a ii V in that bar, but the pair of ii V (regular and tritone) sounds good to me.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Here's another one. Find one that makes sense to you. Piano players tend to put in all sorts of crazy things and make them sound okay. Best keep it simple.

    What is this change??-ehtm-2-jpg

    Here's a really good player but good luck copying that!

    Doug plays respectable guitar too, although he’s much better on piano. Piano players make nearly anything work. It’s all in the keyboard.