Originally Posted by
christianm77
That's why I said it's a bit of stretch, but then it's kind of bollocks anyway. I don't actually think I hear it that way. The lack of the Eb does tend to reduce the dominant function of that chord.
The cadence is pretty weak. A lot of common tones, and the only semitone motion is the bass.
B D F G
Bb D F A
It only works in this tune to my ears. As I say Jobim witchcraft. He's like a composer or something.
But to take it back to those chord scales for a minute.... and this is why I say its bollocks really... No-one thought in chord/scale systems when writing these songs because they weren't thinking in chord symbols at all. They thought melody first, harmony second - so the difference between a 7#11 and 7b5 even if you find one is kind of ambiguous. Which leads us to the question - how do you tell?
In the examples listed above by rintincop, it is a #11 based on the enharmonic spelling, chromatic chord with a diatonic melody note. So E on Bb7 in C major, etc.
OTOH for it to be a #11 on a V7, you need a chromatic note. The melodic spelling would suggest it resolves a half step up. I would imagine in any example she find, the #11 would resolve to 5th before the chord changes because GASB composers don't seem to be in the habit of resolving to the 9ths of tonic chords. This is also true of the Tune Up example. Do we see those chords as being #11 because the overall chord scale might reflect the #11 if we were thinking that way? Or do we see it as just a passing dissonance?
The Darn That Dream example is kind of weird because it's certainly a #11 on the B7 ascending to 5, but the overall modality is minor, which would tend to imply (usually) b5 harmony to a dogmatic jazz theorist. Maybe they would think half whole scale? Good god.
Of course, from the point of view of standard (non jazz) harmony, it's a lower chromatic neighbour tone appoggiatura in the melody. (In fact even to write it as #11 and not #4 is kind of silly, but that's what we are used to seeing.) It has no real modality, and the chord symbol merely reflects that melodic moment, so someone reading the chart doesn't clash with the singer or whatever. (Chord symbols should be treated with a healthy disrespect.)
So, anyway, to find a song a melody that goes C#--->D on G7 and Cmaj9 or Cm9 puts you more in the realm of jazz compositions, like Blue in Green etc. And you can obviously make a better case for chord scale or proto-chord scale type thinking in the richer harmony Bill Evans, Strayhorn etc.
So kind of you don't get V7#11 chords almost by definition - that's not how they are heard... Which is a bit like what Tal 175 said about 7b5 chords, the other side of the coin.
But it isn't totally meaningless because there are quite a few jazz musicians who do in fact play standards this way even though this is not how they were written. So, I dunno. What do you play on that B7 in Darn That Dream, I guess?
Part 2 Secrets to McCoy Tyner using 4ths,...
Today, 07:31 PM in Improvisation