The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    No i wasn't referring to the augmented 6th chord (Italian 6th etc). I don't think that's what OP is about.
    Thats my boy! *beams*

    Well the OP isn’t really about a tritone sub either is it?

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thats my boy! *beams*

    Well the OP isn’t really about a tritone sub either is it?
    Exactly my point in my earlier post in response to someone suggesting the tritone.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    No I mean G7/F effectively which is a Lydian dominant voicing. But of course the bass note in B - but anyway it was a reach

    This progression ONLY works in this tune. Jobim witchcraft
    We were discussing G7/B. That could be F lydian dominant. With a B in the bass, if you want to think of it as B lyddom, you would have B D# F A. And, the tune chokes on the D#.

    I guess I don't understand your point. Would you break it down please?

  5. #29

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    Why would you think of it as B Lydian dominant? Not sure I get where that come in but, sure why not?

    I was thinking of it as a F Lydian Dom/B altered chord, which relates to the Op. but it would make more sense to think of it as B altered, and I often use this type of sub for a 7alt (eg G/B for B7alt)

    B lyd dom much more obvious thing to do on V

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why would you think of it as B Lydian dominant? Not sure I get where that come in but, sure why not?

    I was thinking of it as a F Lydian Dom/B altered chord, which relates to the Op. but it would make more sense to think of it as B altered, and I often use this type of sub for a 7alt (eg G/B for B7alt)

    B lyd dom much more obvious thing to do on V
    Thank you. I understand what you were saying. I didn't think of it as B lyd dom. But the chord had a B in the bass and an F, so I thought maybe that's what you were referring to. F Lyd Dom has the same problem. There's no Eb in that chord (G7/F) as I hear the harmony of the tune.

  7. #31

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    That's why I said it's a bit of stretch, but then it's kind of bollocks anyway. I don't actually think I hear it that way. The lack of the Eb does tend to reduce the dominant function of that chord.

    The cadence is pretty weak. A lot of common tones, and the only semitone motion is the bass.

    B D F G
    Bb D F A

    It only works in this tune to my ears. As I say Jobim witchcraft. He's like a composer or something.

    But to take it back to those chord scales for a minute.... and this is why I say its bollocks really... No-one thought in chord/scale systems when writing these songs because they weren't thinking in chord symbols at all. They thought melody first, harmony second - so the difference between a 7#11 and 7b5 even if you find one is kind of ambiguous. Which leads us to the question - how do you tell?

    In the examples listed above by rintincop, it is a #11 based on the enharmonic spelling, chromatic chord with a diatonic melody note. So E on Bb7 in C major, etc.

    OTOH for it to be a #11 on a V7, you need a chromatic note. The melodic spelling would suggest it resolves a half step up. I would imagine in any example she find, the #11 would resolve to 5th before the chord changes because GASB composers don't seem to be in the habit of resolving to the 9ths of tonic chords. This is also true of the Tune Up example. Do we see those chords as being #11 because the overall chord scale might reflect the #11 if we were thinking that way? Or do we see it as just a passing dissonance?

    The Darn That Dream example is kind of weird because it's certainly a #11 on the B7 ascending to 5, but the overall modality is minor, which would tend to imply (usually) b5 harmony to a dogmatic jazz theorist. Maybe they would think half whole scale? Good god.

    Of course, from the point of view of standard (non jazz) harmony, it's a lower chromatic neighbour tone appoggiatura in the melody. (In fact even to write it as #11 and not #4 is kind of silly, but that's what we are used to seeing.) It has no real modality, and the chord symbol merely reflects that melodic moment, so someone reading the chart doesn't clash with the singer or whatever. (Chord symbols should be treated with a healthy disrespect.)

    So, anyway, to find a song a melody that goes C#--->D on G7 and Cmaj9 or Cm9 puts you more in the realm of jazz compositions, like Blue in Green etc. And you can obviously make a better case for chord scale or proto-chord scale type thinking in the richer harmony Bill Evans, Strayhorn etc.

    So kind of you don't get V7#11 chords almost by definition - that's not how they are heard... Which is a bit like what Tal 175 said about 7b5 chords, the other side of the coin.

    But it isn't totally meaningless because there are quite a few jazz musicians who do in fact play standards this way even though this is not how they were written. So, I dunno. What do you play on that B7 in Darn That Dream, I guess?
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-08-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's why I said it's a bit of stretch, but then it's kind of bollocks anyway. I don't actually think I hear it that way. The lack of the Eb does tend to reduce the dominant function of that chord.

    The cadence is pretty weak. A lot of common tones, and the only semitone motion is the bass.

    B D F G
    Bb D F A

    It only works in this tune to my ears. As I say Jobim witchcraft. He's like a composer or something.

    But to take it back to those chord scales for a minute.... and this is why I say its bollocks really... No-one thought in chord/scale systems when writing these songs because they weren't thinking in chord symbols at all. They thought melody first, harmony second - so the difference between a 7#11 and 7b5 even if you find one is kind of ambiguous. Which leads us to the question - how do you tell?

    In the examples listed above by rintincop, it is a #11 based on the enharmonic spelling, chromatic chord with a diatonic melody note. So E on Bb7 in C major, etc.

    OTOH for it to be a #11 on a V7, you need a chromatic note. The melodic spelling would suggest it resolves a half step up. I would imagine in any example she find, the #11 would resolve to 5th before the chord changes because GASB composers don't seem to be in the habit of resolving to the 9ths of tonic chords. This is also true of the Tune Up example. Do we see those chords as being #11 because the overall chord scale might reflect the #11 if we were thinking that way? Or do we see it as just a passing dissonance?

    The Darn That Dream example is kind of weird because it's certainly a #11 on the B7 ascending to 5, but the overall modality is minor, which would tend to imply (usually) b5 harmony to a dogmatic jazz theorist. Maybe they would think half whole scale? Good god.

    Of course, from the point of view of standard (non jazz) harmony, it's a lower chromatic neighbour tone appoggiatura in the melody. (In fact even to write it as #11 and not #4 is kind of silly, but that's what we are used to seeing.) It has no real modality, and the chord symbol merely reflects that melodic moment, so someone reading the chart doesn't clash with the singer or whatever. (Chord symbols should be treated with a healthy disrespect.)

    So, anyway, to find a song a melody that goes C#--->D on G7 and Cmaj9 or Cm9 puts you more in the realm of jazz compositions, like Blue in Green etc. And you can obviously make a better case for chord scale or proto-chord scale type thinking in the richer harmony Bill Evans, Strayhorn etc.

    So kind of you don't get V7#11 chords almost by definition - that's not how they are heard... Which is a bit like what Tal 175 said about 7b5 chords, the other side of the coin.

    But it isn't totally meaningless because there are quite a few jazz musicians who do in fact play standards this way even though this is not how they were written. So, I dunno. What do you play on that B7 in Darn That Dream, I guess?
    The chords we're talking about are Am7 B7#11 B7 to Em. I seem to like the V7#11 to tonic well enough.

    To my ear, it's a ii V im in Em. Am7 has a G instead of an F#, but, that small point aside, it's an F#m7b5.

    The next chord is certainly B7#11, or is it?

    Maybe it's F7 for one beat and then B7 (at least, I hear that). Thence to Em.

    My first chorus comp would probably leave the fifths out of those chords. After that, I might still not bother with the B7#11 and just leave that sound to the soloist's discretion. Or, if the soloist was avoiding that, I might play it to inject a little bit of the original melody into the comping. Or I might play it and let the soloist stay out of my way, er .... I mean, be inspired by it.

    For soloing, I like the sound of the F. So, I'd hope that the pianist didn't play an F# right there. I'd be thinking B7 or Em and picking the specific notes by ear.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    x5355x 3x342x x3243x

    xx3555 xx34233 xx2213

    xx7968 xx9 10 89 xx9 9 10 10

    xx7968 xx5667 xx5557

    xx10 10 10 12 xx9 10 10 9 xx998 10

    I tried some voicings with a pedal G in the soprano, but I didn't like them much.
    Nice. Sounds good to me.