The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #226

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    IMO, the anti-theory theories seem to indicate that perhaps some sort of creative blocks other than theory could be the real problems.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    I'm confident enough in my voice as a jazz musician
    wtf

  4. #228

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    wtf wat

  5. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    wtf wat
    sorry!

    wtf, lol?

  6. #230

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    u need halp

  7. #231

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    The problem with theory is when people get caught up on trying to make things FIT it. It should be the other way around...so not "It says I can use lydian dominant here," but "Oh, that cool lick is all notes from lydian dominant...let me figure out what else I can do with those notes."

  8. #232

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    Coltrane employed theory when he soloed on Giant Steps.

  9. #233

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    Barry Harris employs theory when he plays.

  10. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Barry Harris employs theory when he plays.

    But what came first .. him being able to play great or the theory?


    Was he a world class player/improviser first that got into theory later on

    or

    Was the theory the reason he became world class?


    The Barry Harris wiki tells this story:
    In his teens he learned the bebop largely by ear, imitating solos by Powell.

  11. #235

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    At the 22:23 mark I realized that I was watching my video screen, within which showed a video posted by Lobomov of Christiaan van Hemert, within which Christiaan was showing a video of Rhett Shull, within which Rhett was showing a video of Julian Lage.

  12. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Barry Harris employs theory when he plays.
    Depends how you define music theory (I define it differently in this case).... but yes in that he is not purely teaching or presumably practicing based on ear and intuition alone.

    Given most people have their own meaning, and a lot of these debates seem to be more about people talking past each other, I can only give again this basic advice - use your flipping ears and whatever extra info you find helpful.

    Works for most, I think.

    Hemert? Perhaps overstating the case for effect, but I don't think that's always a bad thing. Sometimes you need to be a little simplistic and emphatic to cut through.

    I think I am with him 100% when he says prioritise using one's ears. And TBH that's the number one thing you both need to do and which people are intimated about doing. But as soon as you do it any theory you develops a context and becomes helpful. Simple as that really...

    The other thing is if you have a feel and ear for the music through listening to a lot of it and learning from it for many many hours, you are going to be able to use things like theoretical concepts to make music immediately. Beginner improvisors by and large (not always tho) can't do this. What Hemert is suggesting is the start rather than the end of the process.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-03-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  13. #237

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    What about great metal players? You really think they're singing those 16th notes, 16th note triplets, and even 32nd notes? Uh no. They conceptualize it with theory, then practice it for YEARS before the finished product comes out as music. They don't arrive there 100% aurally. Not one of them.

  14. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    What about great metal players? You really think they're singing those 16th notes, 16th note triplets, and even 32nd notes? Uh no. They conceptualize it with theory, then practice it for YEARS before the finished product comes out as music. They don't arrive there 100% aurally. Not one of them.

    So me transcribing Dave Murray and Adrian Smith solos back in 1992 wasn't a thing?

    I don't know what is happening in modern metal as I quit being interested somewhere in the latter half of the 90s, but I don't really remember 70s/80s metal as being conceptual. It was riff based .. Sure some stuff (especially tapping) is very much arppegio based, but it's still riffs that get moved around.


    Also I know that the title of the thread contains the words "No theory", but if you watch the vids and see what it written here then it is clear that there is some element of "theory".

    You still have a connection between the chord and the licks. The extreme is where Gypsy Sinti version where the chords don't have name, they're just a fingering .. but you still have the connection between the chord (fingering) and the lick .. Then you expand that lick to two licks etc.


    But something we haven't talked about. If you think theory then you have your minor chords and your dominants. These dominants you have the conception of playing inside sound or stepping outside and playing different degrees of altered runs etc.

    Now take a minor 6 run. That is 4 notes played over a couple of octaves. It's a fingering.What happens if you bring that fingering to a minor tune? You play it over the minor chords and you can play it over the dominant chords. Basically that one fingering can cover the entire tune. Depending on how you target the dominant chord it will be an inside or an outside sound.


    So theory wise you have this story. The player decided to play pretty vanilla on this dominant focusing on this and that note .. blah blah blah, while here he chose an altered sound instead focusing on this and that note blah blah blah. Which is a lot to take in.

    In practice without thinking theoretically your ear might have discovered that the player basically played that one fingering over and over again and just shifted it a couple of frets depending on the underlying chord. Further more you might discover that the reason he played the inside or outside version is not artistic choice as much as it is moving your hand the least. If you play the altered version perhaps you only have to shift you hand 1 fret, if you want the inside version then you have to shift it 6 frets (or reverse, which makes you play inside sounds)


    The mechanical side of playing is somehow rarely discussed and instead it's made into theory. Paul Gilbert is one of the few players I've seen going .. I play this arpeggio which theoretically is a whatever arpeggio, but the reason I do it is cause the fingering is just so easy and it sounds great.

  15. #239

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    So we have 2 double standards going:

    Only theory is at fault if a theory idea ends up not being musical. While the ear is never at fault if ideas pursued with the ear fail.

    We can use a base of theory to benefit the 'ear' or 'soul' or whatever. But we can't use our base of soul or musical vision to birth a theoretical approach to idea creation.

    Checks out.

  16. #240

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    My notion of theory has nothing to do with not using your ears. I wish people stopped strawman'ing theory like that. It's quite the contrary, my notion of theory is how to get your ears stronger. I suspect most people who teach using theoretical tools also understand that.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-04-2020 at 07:42 AM.

  17. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    So we have 2 double standards going:

    Only theory is at fault if a theory idea ends up not being musical. While the ear is never at fault if ideas pursued with the ear fail.

    We can use a base of theory to benefit the 'ear' or 'soul' or whatever. But we can't use our base of soul or musical vision to birth a theoretical approach to idea creation.

    Checks out.

    That is your invention. The claim in Christiaan's video that I support here is this:

    In order to play good you need to focus on ear and the mechanical side of thing. Take stuff make it sound good with proper tone and timing then play around with that. In order words practice playing which is best done with practicing licks or phrases that are actually used by other players. If you want to get good fast then this is the way to do it.

    I mean you can always get "academic" and look for even the slightest inconsistencies in my post that all are written on the fly. I dig



    Theory can be interesting and fun, but will not aide you in playing getting good at actually playing. If you want to do that then you got to do the playing.


    Give me one player that got good thru theory. Wes started out by transcribing Charlie Christian

    If we take metal Yngwie transcribed that entire Richie Blackmore catalogue on his way to become Yngwie etc etc etc. I don't buy that there was a single metal player that started out by going .. Hey this is a song in E. Let me map out the arpeggios and construct some licks from that.



    All the theory I know have not allowed me to come up with something like the first bar from Donna Lee. On the other hand finally learning that phrase I have no problem combine that with other stuff to make good sounding lines in other tunes

    But that is basically the statement here. Wanna get good fast then transcribe phrases and practice applying them in different context.


    To round off what I'm saying is that "I'm going to play this Wes Montgomery lick" is to me a more efficient way to think than "I'm going to play the 7th mode of the melodic minor starting from this chords root".

    Btw first time I hit this chord I wanted less tension, so I played the 4th mode of melodic minor starting from this chords root.
    Last edited by Lobomov; 12-04-2020 at 08:14 AM.

  18. #242

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    Btw ... I decided I didn't want to post this as I already posted the first two vids, but screw it ... Here is Christiaans last installment on the subject on learning to play ... He has since moved on to different topics like Gypsy picking.

    But it's interesting enough as Martin Miller champions the learning triads in all sorts of position using the circle of 5th etc ... If you're bored you might find it interesting Clint


  19. #243

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    You're making it a false dichotomy like you have been for the last week. Noone is saying learn do re mi meanwhile live in a bubble and never listen to music or practice phrases.

    You need a base of theory to understand the musicality of everything, the phrases, the harmonies, the nuance. You need both. They're all beneficial. In the end the only thing that matters is if it's well done and musical. So no it doesn't matter how you get there but studying any aspect will never hurt you, as long as it's not done to the exclusion of other essential topics.

    Give 10 kids a guitar and Barney Kessel playing Autumn Leaves. How many will succeed in playing music? ZERO. YOU NEED BOTH. Someone has to show the kids put ur finger here do this, do this. THAT'S THEORY. Then listen to how it's supposed to sound. YOU NEED BOTH. WTF.

  20. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    How many will succeed in playing music? [....] Someone has to show the kids put ur finger here do this, do this. THAT'S THEORY.
    This is exactly what this thread is about. Mechanics and the act of actually playing. Learn how to move your fingers. This will indirectly be ear training as your ear improves as you fingers learn more and more sounds. At some point you're going to have a link between what you hear and what you play. But focus only on Technique (mechanics) Tone and Timing. That is it.

    That is basically what Christiaan's channel/patreon is all about. There is this song. I'm going to show you 3 solos over this song (say Django, Birelle, Stohelo or non gypsy players like Peter Bernstein and Ulf Wakenius or even non-guitar people like Stan Getz and Barry Harris). Here is the tab and here is 3x40 minutes of me going thru each solo measure by measure.

    You should be doing the transcriptions yourself off course, but here is the next best thing. I'll sum it up by going thru what I consider the 6 best licks in those three solos and talk a bit about how those can be applied. Then round it off by a rhythm work out if you ever need to comp.


    If you consider that theory then sure .. Let's learn lots of theory. But in this discussion theory is this






    Makes me wanna ask if you watched any of the videos or are you just going of the "No theory" in the title of this thread?

  21. #245

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    Anyways. This have been a fun thread and I enjoyed being a stout defender of "no theory" .. End of day I got what I wanted and stuff is has now gone in circles more than once.


    But thanks for contributing out all of you ... Greatly appreciated!!

  22. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    So me transcribing Dave Murray and Adrian Smith solos back in 1992 wasn't a thing?
    Up the Irons!

    Two highly underrated melodic lead players.

    Maybe why metal is all crap metalcore crap or inexplicable 8 string Djent widdles with no songs might have something to do with it getting all theory obsessed. Of course I'm an old fart. All popular music is doomed to go the sad way of jazz. Just wait when you can do BMus in MC'ing, that'll kill hiphop too.

  23. #247

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    I just started doing some transcribing of Kenny Burrell's solo on Lyresto after being inspired by this thread.

    It definitely helped my ears grow a bit as I was forced to transcribe the bass line to figure out some of the chords which was much harder than transcribing the actual guitar solo.

    But, I mostly gained some theoretical insights, IMO. For instance, their is backdoor resolution from the bVII7 to the I. And Burrell basically just does a descending minor scale run in the parallel minor key and uses that every time. I wasn't that familiar with the backdoor progression or what to play over it.

    The part, I'm struggling with, is how transcribing will improve my technical proficiency which is where I'm weakest. Do I keep playing the solo over and over again until I can play it at tempo? Right now I can only play it smoothly at 75%. I guess what I'm saying is that technical mastery is the hardest part for me and I don't see a big distinction between ear and theory and are we saying that transcribing and mastering others solos will improve that?

  24. #248

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    Hemert is an excellent musician in several instruments and totally dedicated to art of music; listening carefully to his latest clips, I don't think he's championing the "No Theory" option/method, he's really looking at it as a different way to learn and getting a bad rap for it. I'm not a proponent of his method, but respect his opinion and agree to disagree. I accept and agree that it has worked for many people including some great guitarists, but at some point I'm sure that theory came into the picture. Years ago I knew a jazz guitarist back in New York who was an incredible musician and had amazing improv skills, he barely read charts but that was it. I asked him after a gig about his approach to improvisation and he replied: "I listen to as many records from Wes, Martino, Smith, and Pass as I can, and try to play many of their lines over the same chords, they've already figured out the theory and know what they are doing, so I don't need the theory" Again, I'm not a proponent of his method and have spent many years and money studying theory and Harmony, but it is a different path and no doubt it's worked for others. No reason to ridicule or give a bad rap to a fellow jazz musician.



    Cheers,
    Arnie..

  25. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I just started doing some transcribing of Kenny Burrell's solo on Lyresto after being inspired by this thread.

    It definitely helped my ears grow a bit as I was forced to transcribe the bass line to figure out some of the chords which was much harder than transcribing the actual guitar solo.

    But, I mostly gained some theoretical insights, IMO. For instance, their is backdoor resolution from the bVII7 to the I. And Burrell basically just does a descending minor scale run in the parallel minor key and uses that every time. I wasn't that familiar with the backdoor progression or what to play over it.

    The part, I'm struggling with, is how transcribing will improve my technical proficiency which is where I'm weakest. Do I keep playing the solo over and over again until I can play it at tempo? Right now I can only play it smoothly at 75%. I guess what I'm saying is that technical mastery is the hardest part for me and I don't see a big distinction between ear and theory and are we saying that transcribing and mastering others solos will improve that?
    Good stuff. This is where the rubber hits the road...

    If you can hear it at speed it's much easier, provided your technique is basically there (i.e. you can play the instrument which is not always a given of course). Make sure you can sing every note in the phase. Not necessarily 100% accurate pitch, but the singing will help you audiate the details in your head. This sort of work has always helped me 'slow down the tempo' so that the target tempo feels slower than at first. Speed is often much more psychological than we suppose.

    I am not generally a fan of slowing down phrases to transcribe them except when I absolutely have to (like a Parker or Holdsworth double time phrase). Looping and repetition are more helpful.

    Writing down and analysing a solo is not the same as internalising it. Don't write it down unless you have to (for another player to perform, or to teach), or are practicing writing out music.

  26. #250

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    Barry Harris didn't have the options of by ear or by theory, it's not a zero sum game. The jazz theory route wasn't really available to him in those times.
    And why consider everything as what's best for "beginners". I'm not a beginner, are you?
    Is this a how to teach beginners sort of forum? It seems C is always an advocate for that sort of thing, just considering teaching students.

    Cory Henry (Snarky Puppy : "Lingus" keyboardist), is no slouch, he doesn't think "theory is a waste of time." He thinks theory when he practices to consciously organize what his ears hear. He doesn't think theory when he performs: he goes into the flow, listens, and his theory is simultaneously employed subconsciously.
    Last edited by rintincop; 12-04-2020 at 03:20 PM.