The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Theory codifies similarities, differences, point of focus, relationships, form and shape, possible evolutionary paths, possible destinations,etc.
    Each new idea is an experiment waiting to happen and when that engagement leads to musical growth, that's a beautiful thing. Organizational systems can help consolidate that which we already know and or introduce new content
    but until it is directly linked to sound and mechanics it is simply just talk.
    Talk is not music and there lies a potential trap.

    Often when people talk of knowing "no theory" they are often referring to being unschooled in the knowledge base prevalent in present day academic circles, be it that of a classical or jazz lineage.These are not the only games in town. For some a personally crafted descriptive language is more effective.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Beato is frustrating. But on some level he gets it, see the video above. He’s not wrong...
    I can see that. I think that he is really good about demonstrating what he knows and he has some really keen insights. But I am not so sure about his teaching and communicating abilities. (Maybe if I downloaded the Beato Book I would change my opinion of that - I don’t know.). I tend for view his videos for the overall meaning and that is where he “gets it” for me.

    I actually like to hear people demonstrate and talk music theory, but I can’t participate to any great degree. Partly because I don’t have the formal training to have the confidence and partly because, unless it is very focused and demonstrated clearly, it seems somewhat tangential and tedious.

  4. #128

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    Music theory is four semesters, guys. Four, sixteen-week semesters. It's a 3-hour course. You meet for one hour on M-W-F and have assignments that you work on for 1-2 hours, 3-4 days per week.

    We can be thankful that in today's world we can use notation software that plays back every note that we enter - as we enter it. In other words, yes we can hear it - and right away. We don't need a keyboard, or a personal choir.

    So, that's theory.

    Now - private instrumental lessons, improv, ensembles, arranging, composition, conducting? Those are separate classes. Take 'em as they come, and enjoy the ride.

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    but until (theory) is directly linked to sound and mechanics it is simply just talk.
    Talk is not music and there lies a potential trap.
    What trap? How dumb do you have to be to not know that do re mi sol fa ti do isn't music?

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    So I finally had the time to watch the whole OP video. I liked it a lot. I don't see what all the fuss is about really. The title perhaps?


    It really is a fine little vid ... and the fuss? ... Like 99% of fuss'es here I assume it's mostly rooted in people being stuck at home and looking for a bit of validation .. nothing like a good internet brawl to make you feel alive

  7. #131

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    Maybe it is the title (which is stupid).

    And - we have to wade through 6 minutes of bullshitalk to hear some "interesting" banter and rapartee? lol. Perhaps these internet geniuses don't understand the internet generation as well as they think they do.


    UPDATE: The guy in the white t-shirt is full of shit. Who would listen to this crap? Is he a night manager at GC?

    I think that THIS is the real "Guitar Wank". Just don't watch. It will rot your brain.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 11-23-2020 at 03:48 AM.

  8. #132

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    It occurred to me today that quite a few of the best bop/straightahead and gypsy style players on the national (UK) scene didn’t come from a conventional music college background. Not all, but a significant fraction like 20-30%

    Most (or all) of the contemporary style players did to some extent.

    I think that sort of lines up with how these language oriented traditional approaches are best learned. I also know bop players who did study music formally but are very dismissive of what they learned at college, so as they say on the webz YMMV.

    The contemporary approach is more conceptual. To take it away from chord scales for a minute; the approach to rhythm is more formally complex concerned with odd meter and complex polyrhythms and taught through mathematical approaches like Konakol (which is popular among jazzers since John McLaughlin used it), as opposed to more experiential subjective ‘groove’ approaches.

    That’s the kind of thing that works really well in a formal edu environment (I’m studying it myself this way) and provides a useful toolbox for dealing with formally complex music.

    That’s where the strengths of this kind of teaching lie; and that is the sort of thing you can teach in three or four years as opposed to how to play jazz which of course takes much longer.

    Theres a whole sort of discussion you could have about how these complex elements of music are self sustaining though edu, as opposed to the older more ‘street’ oriented styles, but I think that need not be a strict dichotomy even if it sometimes seems that way (I don’t think it is in NYC for instance). However I know a lot of boppers who really don’t like contemporary jazz.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-23-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    So I finally had the time to watch the whole OP video. I liked it a lot. I don't see what all the fuss is about really. The title perhaps?

    One thing that hit me is that C. seems to be mostly coming from a pretty narrow guitar practice in this vid: Gypsy. I think his approach makes the utmost sense there. It's practical. Learn to do what Django did. My guitar life has been about trying to be ready to play anything. Possibly even something I've never thought of before. I think it makes a difference. Just studying licks and chord shapes won't get there.

    I cracked up when Chris reacted to Rhett's thing about learning all your triads. Plays a simple triad and shows a bit of a sour face... like: "how lame is that? why would I want to know that? why would I ever play it?"

    But he also talks about what an amazing player Lage is and how much fun it was to jam with him. Julian's a Berklee grad and much more.

    Anyways, I think there's been some great discussion which I've enjoyed, for the most part.
    Well Julian’s been playing since he was a foetus, so there you go. Music is his mother tongue.

    But if you can speak the language, learning some scales isn’t going to hurt you.

    It’s that ‘if’ that’s my area of concern.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-23-2020 at 09:43 AM.

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well Julian’s been playing since he was a foetus, so there you go. Music is his mother tongue.

    But if you can speak the language, learning some scales isn’t going to hurt you.

    An recent experience of mine

    In the his "Django in Rome" solo on Minor Swing, Django plays the notes E to C# just ending on that C# over the Dm chord. My ears hated that sound and at first I was convinced it was a notation error and that it should be E to D instead. Turns out it wasn't a notation error, but what he actually played.


    First time I played it the sound of the lick actually provoked a physical reaction of me pulling back ... But after playing that lick a lot of times, I've grown fond of that sound ...

    But for one thing I haven't seen that there is no way in hell I'd play it on my own even if some theory book typed out that a Dm-maj7 sound is a possibility there.


    .. and off course since I'm a lot better at theory than actually playing, my brain retrospectively explained that the reason I like it is that ugly sounding C# resolves to the D or 7th of the upcoming E chord ... and that is cool, but what made it alive for me was learning/hearing Django.


    At 0:27


  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    An recent experience of mine

    In the his "Django in Rome" solo on Minor Swing, Django plays the notes E to C# just ending on that C# over the Dm chord. My ears hated that sound and at first I was convinced it was a notation error and that it should be E to D instead. Turns out it wasn't a notation error, but what he actually played.


    First time I played it the sound of the lick actually provoked a physical reaction of me pulling back ... But after playing that lick a lot of times, I've grown fond of that sound ...

    But for one thing I haven't seen that there is no way in hell I'd play it on my own even if some theory book typed out that a Dm-maj7 sound is a possibility there.


    .. and off course since I'm a lot better at theory than actually playing, my brain retrospectively explained that the reason I like it is that ugly sounding C# resolves to the D or 7th of the upcoming E chord ... and that is cool, but what made it alive for me was learning/hearing Django.


    At 0:27

    I don’t know that recording! Thanks. That’s a classic bop era thing, maybe popularised by Billy Strayhorn? I’d be interested to know if Django ever played that pre war, although the melodic minor sound is alluded to in his pre war lines that blatant use of those James Bond notes is not something or come across until Strayhorn with Ellington.

    So today we’d think melodic minor or Dmmaj9.

    However - is it instead an unresolved dominant triad superimposed on the Dm?

    All these explanations work and yet we’ll probably never actually know how Django heard it or thought of it. Maybe it doesn’t matter.

    Theory is presented as objective, but it is in fact subjective.

    Calling them ‘James Bond’ notes might be the best way of naming that sound early on - everyone knows the sound of THAT chord. And then you can say James Bond = min(maj)9 later.

    (BTW I only realised today that ‘all day long’ in the ‘wheels on the bus’ is a II V I. Doh.)

  12. #136
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It occurred to me today that quite a few of the best bop/straightahead and gypsy style players on the national (UK) scene didn’t come from a conventional music college background. Not all, but a significant fraction like 20-30%

    Most (or all) of the contemporary style players did to some extent.

    I think that sort of lines up with how these language oriented traditional approaches are best learned. I also know bop players who did study music formally but are very dismissive of what they learned at college, so as they say on the webz YMMV.

    The contemporary approach is more conceptual. To take it away from chord scales for a minute; the approach to rhythm is more formally complex concerned with odd meter and complex polyrhythms and taught through mathematical approaches like Konakol (which is popular among jazzers since John McLaughlin used it), as opposed to more experiential subjective ‘groove’ approaches.

    That’s the kind of thing that works really well in a formal edu environment (I’m studying it myself this way) and provides a useful toolbox for dealing with formally complex music.

    That’s where the strengths of this kind of teaching lie; and that is the sort of thing you can teach in three or four years as opposed to how to play jazz which of course takes much longer.

    Theres a whole sort of discussion you could have about how these complex elements of music are self sustaining though edu, as opposed to the older more ‘street’ oriented styles, but I think that need not be a strict dichotomy even if it sometimes seems that way (I don’t think it is in NYC for instance). However I know a lot of boppers who really don’t like contemporary jazz.
    I talked to Christiaan just this morning briefly. He is actually teaching at the Rotterdam University of Arts. He is mostly working with students doing a master in jazz and pop. LOL!!!!!!

    As usual the proof is in the clips, not in the talk. Music is behaviour, not some pixel rant on a screen.

    I am working on Dolphin Dance and came across Christiaan's video on that tune.

    Here's Christiaan on "Dolphin Dance." The dude can play and knows his theory. But, like he told me, there are many roads that lead to Rome.

    Whatever a guy like that has to say I am interested in.

    DB


  13. #137

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    I think your have to follow you own star? And listen to the people who play the way you want to.

    From my experience too, don't believe people who say they are not teachers - they are sometimes better teachers than the ones who say they are.

    Lend me the ears of any great musician for an hour or two and let them tell me what they hear... it's always an education.

    Christiaan can certainly play anyway. If you like the way he plays, listen to what he says.

  14. #138

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    Interesting that Jimmy Raney had a go at Dolphin Dance once, not the sort of tune you would associate with him.


  15. #139
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Interesting that Jimmy Raney had a go at Dolphin Dance once, not the sort of tune you would associate with him.

    Yeah. I know what you mean. He probably preferred functional harmonies? I know I do. I hardly have problems with improvising over functional changes but modal tunes is often a different story. I am so much better at playing over functional harmonies (fast or not) than the more complex modal tunes.

    In Trio Chet I was so struggling with a few Tom Harrell tunes that I started to dislike them, haha.

    DB

  16. #140

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    The annual Wintergrass festival near Seattle is mostly bluegrass, but if you wander the halls you can usually find a swing jam or round up a few folks to start one. I ran across one a couple of years ago that had an exceptionally good violin player. I remembered he was Van-something, but I only learned from this thread who he is and that he also plays guitar. I left my guitar in the case for that jam as there were already several great guitar players, including Tim Lerch (if my memory serves). Unfortunately, Wintergrass was cancelled this year along with everything else.

  17. #141
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    The annual Wintergrass festival near Seattle is mostly bluegrass, but if you wander the halls you can usually find a swing jam or round up a few folks to start one. I ran across one a couple of years ago that had an exceptionally good violin player. I remembered he was Van-something, but I only learned from this thread who he is and that he also plays guitar. I left my guitar in the case for that jam as there were already several great guitar players, including Tim Lerch (if my memory serves). Unfortunately, Wintergrass was cancelled this year along with everything else.
    He's an exceptional talent. Both great on jazz violin and guitar. The Rotterdam University hired him for teaching jazz violin and when there were no students anymore he simply switched to guitar. By the way, watch that guitarist on his left detuning his guitar during his solo!

    DB


  18. #142

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    [QUOTE=Dutchbopper;1077261]
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well tbf I’ve never heard the man (djg) play, so some links would be great, if possible.

    He's a modest guy. I only found one clip on the tube with snippets of a recent CD. I hope he does not mind.

    Here's his website. Hope he does not mind. He is one of the few players here that I have actually talked to in person and even played with.

    DB




    Thanks. I am a converted pop, rock and blues player, like so many here. Never looked back though.

    DB
    ES175 with P90s! That was fun!

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone

    ES175 with P90s! That was fun!
    thanks guys, you're far too kind.

    it's an ES-125 with the dreaded pencil-neck.

  20. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    here you are:


    Attachment 77005
    Could I order a T-hers as well for my wife?

  21. #145

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    Btw .. if anyone is bored, Christiaan is reacting to Beato in 15 minutes:


  22. #146

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    I think the term "theory" is vague.

    To wit, which of these is covered, or meant, by the term?

    1. Knowing enough to look at a chart for the first time, see some unfamiliar harmony and know which notes will work so that you can get through a solo without clams.

    2. Pairing every possible triad with every other possible triad and then taking the resulting hexatonics and playing each against every possible bass note -- and working on that until it's done.

    I find #1 helpful because I play in situations like that. To accomplish the goal I don't really have to know that much theory -- but, what I do need has to be instantly available to me. So, I drill that.

    Regarding #2, I know that some people find sounds from theoretical constructs and are able to get them into their playing. That has worked so poorly for me I regret the time I spent trying to do it. I'd have been much better off working on ear training by transcribing or with exercises.

    So, when we talk about theory, what, exactly, are we talking about?

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I think the term "theory" is vague.

    To wit, which of these is covered, or meant, by the term?

    1. Knowing enough to look at a chart for the first time, see some unfamiliar harmony and know which notes will work so that you can get through a solo without clams.

    2. Pairing every possible triad with every other possible triad and then taking the resulting hexatonics and playing each against every possible bass note -- and working on that until it's done.

    I find #1 helpful because I play in situations like that. To accomplish the goal I don't really have to know that much theory -- but, what I do need has to be instantly available to me. So, I drill that.

    Regarding #2, I know that some people find sounds from theoretical constructs and are able to get them into their playing. That has worked so poorly for me I regret the time I spent trying to do it. I'd have been much better off working on ear training by transcribing or with exercises.

    So, when we talk about theory, what, exactly, are we talking about?
    To me, theory basically means math. Data.

    For example, like in the Steve Vai video I posted... knowing that a 9 chord has the 9th degree of the major scale in it, and also implies the dominant 7th of that scale (as opposed to a maj9 chord), etc.... that's theory. But putting your fingers on the fretboard and building that same chord by ear because you want to hear a certain sound, is not. That's execution. And it's not execution of theory- it's execution of music. I'm betting the execution of music came WAY before the development of theory, which would prove one does not need theory in order to play music.

  24. #148

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    On any guitar forum, except perhaps a classical one, there will be more opinions on that question than expertise.

    Amazon.com

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Btw .. if anyone is bored, Christiaan is reacting to Beato in 15 minutes:

    I got a better insight into Christiaan's point of view in this video than the first one. I enjoyed it.

    On a separate note, talking about Messi, Maradona died today. Sad.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2020 at 04:03 PM.

  26. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    On a separate note, talking about Messi, Maradona died today. Sad.
    Indeed ... Time and his scandals has made many forget just how good he was