The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    You must be joking.. That one's easy. CHARLIE PARKER. All he does is outline the chords in his musical way and it sounds beautiful. He said he'd practice all day and run his blues and rhythm changes in every key. Pretty sure that's theory.
    pretty sure it is not

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    It's both.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah ... This point has been made several times in this thread, but is worth repeating at least once more.

    The framework for this thread is "99% of people would get more mileage out of replacing their theory studies with practical playing"


    That quickly dissolves into discussion and worries about the 1% elite. They are irrelevant.




    The claim here is that they can't get anywhere thru theory but need to pay their dues playing. Sure you can supplement by theory or study theory simply cause you're the type that loves theory and finds it fun and satisfying.

    But your claim that anyone has become and functioning and advanced improviser thru theory .. Do you have any examples to support that claim, cause I honestly don't buy it

    (and yeah, I'm aware of stuff like the famous Metheny interview where he is very harsh on Joni for not knowing theory, but man .. that guy .. He paid his dues by basically playing 24/7 long before getting into theory. He almost failed elementary school due to pouring all his energy into playing and was more or less an an-alphabet until his 20s)
    Yeah. This is it. Look I bloody love music theory, I’m a massive nerd.

    but I’ve been blessed to play with some outstanding musicians and while some have no theory knowledge to speak of the one thing they all have in common is extensive listening,ear learning and playing experience. So.... do with that info what you will.

  5. #104

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    99% of people would get more mileage out of replacing their theory studies with practical playing
    They're not mutually exclusive LOL

  6. #105

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    BTW, I just wanted to say that Christiaan is a bad mofo on the guitar, so maybe I should be listening to him.

  7. #106
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    dutchbopper has accomplished what you dream of, learning jazz at an adult age and getting his playing up to professional level. he has the answers you're looking for.
    Thanks djg. I was 37 when I started out on my jazz journey. I remember playing with you at the jazz guitar night at the Crowand being so in awe. I just looked it up and it was in 2004. I do not often give compliments here but playing wise you are easily one of the best players here. I have the impression many here do not realise that.

    DB

  8. #107

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    Well tbf I’ve never heard the man (djg) play, so some links would be great, if possible.

    Also starting at 37? An inspiration yourself I would say.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Frame of relevance is important here. You've taken advice aimed at the average musician, who is trying to learn how to function in jazz and moved the discussion to the utmost elite musicians.

    I'll claim that most non-pro musicians would profit from removing the time spent on theory to actually playing, if they goal is to play better that is (and not just having fun "understanding" stuff)


    I mean people competing to be the best in the world is all fine and dandy .. making this thread about that .. meh
    Nah, just music majors.

    I studied theory in high school as a hobby, and also as an elective in 12th grade. It didn't interfere with my practicing time any more than any other thing I did on a typical day.


    The guitar has an informal culture. There seems to be some kind of pride in remaining ignorant. Maybe it's just plain old fashioned laziness, or maybe it's the gypsy or delta blues man persona. Hmmm. I'm goin' with lazy.

  10. #109
    Dutchbopper Guest
    [QUOTE=christianm77;1077256]Well tbf I’ve never heard the man (djg) play, so some links would be great, if possible.

    He's a modest guy. I only found one clip on the tube with snippets of a recent CD. I hope he does not mind.

    Here's his website. Hope he does not mind. He is one of the few players here that I have actually talked to in person and even played with.

    DB


    Also starting at 37? An inspiration yourself I would say.
    Thanks. I am a converted pop, rock and blues player, like so many here. Never looked back though.

    DB

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    That's why I clearly stated: "Theory is only for guys like us who learn jazz as a second language. The toilers ...
    By the way, many if not all of the classic jazz guitarists (Tal, Wes, Herb, Berney etc. etc.) learned it by ear, just like the gypsies. They never went to Berklee. The whole Berklee theory thing was only invented in the 70s. The whole CS thing (chord scale) did not exist when the early boppers were already playing the stars from heaven (Dutch saying) in the 50s.

    These are facts. NOT disinformation.

    DB

    Do you mean Herb Ellis? I seem to recall that he went to UNT. And Barney taught.

    So what's the (supposed) ethic here? "Teaching music is bad", or is it only bad when done on campus soil?

    Just a note (pun intended), but when a gypsy shows another gypsy "hey do it like this, not like that" they are teaching a theory. It's limited, but its still a theory.

  12. #111

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    [QUOTE=Dutchbopper;1077261]
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well tbf I’ve never heard the man (djg) play, so some links would be great, if possible.

    He's a modest guy. I only found one clip on the tube with snippets of a recent CD. I hope he does not mind.

    Here's his website. Hope he does not mind. He is one of the few players here that I have actually talked to in person and even played with.

    DB

    That made me do the stank face.

    Look forward to hearing more hopefully.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    And Keith Jarrett was a child prodigy. Who knows how he learned to do what he did at such a young age.

    I'm looking for answers for the average guy like myself who is already an adult looking to learn and get better. Maybe, just learning everything by ear is the right way for guys like me. I just don't think because some of the greats did this it is necessarily the path for all of us.
    Nah. Don't get discouraged by a bunch of geetar pickers blabbing about "theory is for suckers" with their constant references to talented historical figures who thrived without knowing much theory. They're all wrong.

    The key to learning theory is application. Don't stop theory studies when you put the book down. And don't stop when you have composed something.

    Rather, apply what you study on your instrument - right away. The same day, in other words.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    You must be joking.. That one's easy. CHARLIE PARKER. All he does is outline the chords in his musical way and it sounds beautiful. He said he'd practice all day and run his blues and rhythm changes in every key. Pretty sure that's theory.

    Yes it is, and it's analyzed and taught. Even at Berklee. Gasp!

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    OK, so I can learn to play like Charlie Parker by just practicing chord notes and scales in different keys?

    None of that transcribing and learning from others stuff?

    The foundation of his playing is him shedding chords and scales? Really?
    No. If you want to play like Parker you practice those things but not just those things:

    1. You copy him.
    2. You also copy Joe Pass, who devoted a great deal of his life to intepreting that style of playing on the guitar.
    3. You can also gain some insight into constructing coherent sounding chord outlines through Jazz Ed. There are many sources but to be direct, here are three:

    • Target Tones, by Don Mock (GIT),
    • Jazz Improvisation For Guitar, A Melodic Approach, by Garrison Fewell, chapters 8 and 9 (Berklee)
    • Bert Ligon's books (UNT grad)

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    You REALLY did not read any of the posts you reacted to, right? Geeez ...

    DB
    My point with this post was that all the "improv is a big mystery" line of BS, is just that - BS. It used to be mysterious, but it's not any more. Yes, imitation and repitition of same is huge. If we had to pick only one thing to do perhaps it would be that, but there's no need.

    Analyzing and documenting the construction of the jazz language has been worked on very hard over the last few decades. And most of that hard work at research and writing has been completed by educators at US colleges. We have evolved significantly from the John Mehegan days. That is also a fact.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan

    1. You copy him.
    2. You also copy Joe Pass, who devoted a great deal of his life to intepreting that style of playing on the guitar.

    Sorry did you change your mind?


    That is exacly what Christiaans videos is about and what this entire thread is recommending

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Sorry did you change your mind?


    That is exacly what Christiaans videos is about and what this entire thread is recommending

    No, no, no, no, no. You chopped off my last points.

    I don't believe in imitation only.

  19. #118
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    My point with this post was that all the "improv is a big mystery" line of BS, is just that - BS. It used to be mysterious, but it's not any more. Yes, imitation and repitition of same is huge. If we had to pick only one thing to do perhaps it would be that, but there's no need.

    The jazz language has been worked on very hard over the last few decades. And most of that hard work at research and writing has been completed by educators at US colleges. That is also a fact.
    I was saying the exact same thing about copying real playing. The mystery thing nobody wrote about AFAIK. Hence my remark.

    DB

  20. #119

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    And once again we have a thread about Improv in the Theory section.

    Not to complain, but it's the non-music major or informal player who constantly runs all the music instruction topics together into a big bowl of soup. I get it, but it's so easy to straighten out. Just go to school. And I also understand that you can play a guitar before learning theory. I did.

    But for a larger view of music I recommend taking the arranging courses at Berklee Online - all you have to do is put your cash down and sign up. If you know your theory you should be fine. If not, you'll be done by lesson 4.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    No, no, no, no, no. You chopped off my last points.

    I don't believe in imitation only.

    No one here is talking about pure imitation ...


    The statement is:
    If you want to get better at playing then play instead of reading books.


    It's a video is:
    Targeted at intermediate players and not Berklee students.


    The method is:
    Transcribe/learn as much as you can .. Then apply those licks and phrases different setting and tunes.

    Christiaan's teaching style:
    This month is Donna Lee month
    Here is the theme.
    Here is a Charlie Parker sole
    Here is a Django Solo
    Here is a Birelli Solo
    And let us round off with a recap of the in my opinion best lick from those solos applied to different settings

    Btw .. to round off .. Here is a Rhythm workout if you ever need to comp on Donna Lee



    You'd rather have me read Mark Levin?

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    And once again we have a thread about Improv in the Theory section.

    You're slightly autistic? A bit of rain man?

    If so, my apologies that my lack of utmost care where I post my threads offended you. In my head this is a thread about what aspects of music theory is important in. Next time I'll start one in improvisation for the ones that wish to discuss theory seen as a necesity to improvise. I'll start another for theory as a composing tool in a relevant non-theory section .. Then I'll start one in Gear about the proper amount of theory needed before you can buy a Gibson Super 400


    After all it's not like this is a low traffic forum, where everyone can just press "new posts" and can see all threads discussed the last couple of days without much effort.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    You'd rather have me read Mark Levin?

    Why, yes. And for jazz theory you could read Mark Levine.

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    No one here is talking about pure imitation ...
    DB's gypsy example is pretty close.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    The statement is:
    If you want to get better at playing then play instead of reading books.
    Oh really? OK. Now, should jazzers give up all reading or just reading about jazz? Are they advised against talking about jazz too? Are they likewise advised to stop watching TV, and stop spending time on Facebook and Twitter?

    Bottom line - it's a false equivalence. Do both. There are 16 waking hours in a day. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    It's a video is:
    Targeted at intermediate players and not Berklee students.
    Whats the difference? (just kidding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    The method is:
    Transcribe/learn as much as you can .. Then apply those licks and phrases different setting and tunes.
    Transcriptions are good, and there are many of them already published, so one needn't get too energized about that anymore. Applying reusable material from great solos is spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    Christiaan's teaching style:
    This month is Donna Lee month
    Here is the theme.
    Here is a Charlie Parker sole
    Here is a Django Solo
    Here is a Birelli Solo
    And let us round off with a recap of the in my opinion best lick from those solos applied to different settings

    Btw .. to round off .. Here is a Rhythm workout if you ever need to comp on Donna Lee
    What about the master solos? Do what with them? Play them? Analyze them? Both? That's good but Donna Lee is probably a bit too elevated for most intermediate players, unless they want to play it really slowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    You'd rather have me read Mark Levin?
    I'd rather have you read Berklee's Jazz Harmony book, or perhaps Jazzology.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Except isn't the Martial Arts community riddled with criticism and discussion like these?
    Well... just like this thread. Only AMERICA hold the "dogma attitude"- you do it LIKE I TAUGHT you... in reality, the East does not feel this way about it at all; the martial arts are a constantly growing/changing thing... always have been... just like jazz. Putting YOU into the art is essential in keeping it alive. Only when "kung fu" and "karate" came to America did the rigid "follow my rules" attitude take hold. NOW- like I said in my last post- the East IS stringent about following RULES- but only until you KNOW them. Then, you are not only free do non on your own, but encouraged to. "First learn it, so you can then forget it all and JUST DO."

    There is a great Taoist story/parable that illustrates this, but at the moment my oven timer is going off, so I gotta run!

  26. #125

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    So I finally had the time to watch the whole OP video. I liked it a lot. I don't see what all the fuss is about really. The title perhaps?

    One thing that hit me is that C. seems to be mostly coming from a pretty narrow guitar practice in this vid: Gypsy. I think his approach makes the utmost sense there. It's practical. Learn to do what Django did. My guitar life has been about trying to be ready to play anything. Possibly even something I've never thought of before. I think it makes a difference. Just studying licks and chord shapes won't get there.

    I cracked up when Chris reacted to Rhett's thing about learning all your triads. Plays a simple triad and shows a bit of a sour face... like: "how lame is that? why would I want to know that? why would I ever play it?"

    But he also talks about what an amazing player Lage is and how much fun it was to jam with him. Julian's a Berklee grad and much more.

    Anyways, I think there's been some great discussion which I've enjoyed, for the most part.