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  1. #1

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    Hopefully may interest. Also there might be some Tristano-ites around who can fact check me haha
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-17-2020 at 02:42 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    very nice presentation...billy bauer would be the primary tristano school guitarist




    cheers

  4. #3

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    Interesting, Christian. I had noticed Charlie Christian using a IVm arp over a V chord, and thought it very cool. Very easy to play too, though it still comes down to articulation and swing to really make it effective. It has echoes of the old plagal cadence, so amen to that!

  5. #4

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    I see what you did there

  6. #5

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    Thank you Christian! That describes a lot of what I hear in Warne Marsh and Ted Brown's playing. It came to me quite naturally on tenor but is still in process on guitar!

  7. #6

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    Interesting video, as always. OT: I like that the acoustic output of your very spiffy ES-175 nicely balances with your narration. Too many videos suffer from wild imbalances between spoken parts and playing parts. Thank you for hitting on a pleasant and non-distracting mix.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Interesting, Christian. I had noticed Charlie Christian using a IVm arp over a V chord, and thought it very cool. Very easy to play too, though it still comes down to articulation and swing to really make it effective. It has echoes of the old plagal cadence, so amen to that!
    Phrygian chord? G7sus4b9? (AKA Fm6/G) 35656x
    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 11-18-2020 at 12:35 PM.

  9. #8

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    I’ve been working with this for a while now so it’s interesting to see your take on it.
    For me I noticed how players would substitute IVma-IVmi lines over IImi-V7 progressions.
    So on a progression like Bbma7 - G7 - Cmi7 - F7 you would play Bbma7 - Bb7 - Ebma7 - Ebmi6.

    Actually I’ve heard Benson and Wes playing either Ebmi6 (or miMa7) or also Ebmi7 or even Eb blues scale over the F7 which actually sounds brilliant.

    I hadn’t connected this to Tristano though so thanks for that.

  10. #9

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    Does anyone complete the "four sisters"?

    Galt ... Ab Melodic Minor
    GPhryg ... F Melodic Minor
    G7#11 ... D Melodic Minor
    ??? ... B Melodic Minor

    Seems like something Pat Martino would plow through.

  11. #10

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    B melodic minor doesn’t really work... but yeah, I thought about that.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    I’ve been working with this for a while now so it’s interesting to see your take on it.
    For me I noticed how players would substitute IVma-IVmi lines over IImi-V7 progressions.
    So on a progression like Bbma7 - G7 - Cmi7 - F7 you would play Bbma7 - Bb7 - Ebma7 - Ebmi6.

    Actually I’ve heard Benson and Wes playing either Ebmi6 (or miMa7) or also Ebmi7 or even Eb blues scale over the F7 which actually sounds brilliant.

    I hadn’t connected this to Tristano though so thanks for that.
    it’s almost as if studying the records is the right way to do it haha? Certainly how I came to it. Steve Coleman puts it nicely btw - negative harmony inverts a G7 into Fm IIRC so for him, the G7 is the Sun, and Fm is the Moon.

    This choice often sounds better than the more correct ones. Try it on All Blues for instance. The altered scale sounds like dogshit.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Phrygian chord? G7sus4b9? (AKA Fm6/G) 35656x
    I think if the church, and Gospel music. One way to make a song sound churchy is to play G7sus.... it’s a plagal on a V-I bass. They don’t like to harmonise with the leading tone. In minor as well.

    I’ve heard it said it all goes back to West African six note scales...

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    B melodic minor doesn’t really work... but yeah, I thought about that.
    Technically, it could be a sus4 sound on a tritone substitution.

  15. #14

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    Over a G7, the Dm to Fm to Abm is usual, going up a minor 3rd each time. The next one up, the Bm, will work if you're careful with it. It also sounds nice if continued over the CM7 because of the Lydian effect. The next one up is the Dm again, so it goes round and round.

    The F# is contentious, of course, but it brings to mind the use of the natural 7 over dominants, an oft repeated discussion here.


  16. #15

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    Benson plays Bma7 over G7 a lot. It’s his version of using the Tritone 7th chord (Db7). If you’re unsure of B mel mi because of the F# it’s the same here.

    The F# is the ghost pepper in the recipe. Use with caution but it adds a great flavor.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Benson plays Bma7 over G7 a lot. It’s his version of using the Tritone 7th chord (Db7). If you’re unsure of B mel mi because of the F# it’s the same here.

    The F# is the ghost pepper in the recipe. Use with caution but it adds a great flavor.
    A notable example (in the key of F so Amaj7 over F7) occurs in Bar 3 of his Billie's Bounce solo. My ears really pricked up when I heard that years ago.

  18. #17

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    There’s a subtle distinction to be made here. These two octave scales are all primarily static, vertical harmonic structures with notes you can ‘sit’ on, colours that extend the dominant sound. The notes on the beat give the overall voicing while the other tones are passing tones.

    With this in mind I find the Bm(maj7) rather ugly, but maybe you can make it into something. It doesn’t feature in the Tristano material I have seen, so maybe they left it out for that reason.

    If you are moving from a dominant to a target chord, you can play literally anything provided it resolves satisfyingly. Aside from being the chord on the seventh of Db7, Bmaj7-Cmaj7 is very satisfying from the perspective of horizontal voiceleading, but I don’t know if you would sit on the notes of Bmaj7 on a G7 for too long.

    But maybe you would! There’s no rules.

    (This post raises a fairly obvious point about the Fm, but I’ll leave that for now.)

  19. #18

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    Christian -

    Just seen your video. Not bad. You're looking very spruce these days :-)

    Personally, I use the F mel over G7 a lot because it gives a good b9 sound. I used to only do it in the upper register but now I put it anywhere it works. My bugbear is a simple answer for the 13b9 sound although outlining an E7 can do it. But I'm lazy with dim scales and don't talk about harm majors.

    But, I have to ask you, which was the 'lost dominant'? I wasn't clear at the end of the vid what that was.

  20. #19

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    In Spruce? I always thought I was a bit more Cedar, but hey.

    The harmonic major was invented in 1976 for some reason.

    Harmonically it includes many borrowed minor chords one can find in progressions as well as that elusive 13b9, but melodically i find it cumbersome to use - historically jazz lines, much like classical, seem to me to avoid a aug2nd leap except when it’s just a straight scale run through it. so you would tend to gravitate towards using the b7 of the key as well. (For example the classic Bb-Ab-G-F-E like in C major.) Which brings us to:

    The Fm(maj)7 or Dom 2 is the lost dominant because it’s not widely taught these days; reason I suspect being that it doesn’t ‘agree’ with the chord unless you do the two octave thing. Maybe Harm Maj is an attempt to square that circle, but it doesn’t reflect what people played. (Apart from Django maybe, oddly enough.)

    (I hope I demonstrated Dom 2 is a sweet choice for 13b9.)

    As a result I would also expect to hear Dominant 2 less in contemporary solos, though I haven’t done a survey obviously (yet, haha.)

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    There’s a subtle distinction to be made here. These two octave scales are all primarily static, vertical harmonic structures with notes you can ‘sit’ on, colours that extend the dominant sound. The notes on the beat give the overall voicing while the other tones are passing tones.
    Is the point to the "two octave scales" approach to place tension notes, especially b/#5, b/#9, in the higher register so they don't clash with comping? Go up high enough on the piano and you can play anything!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I
    (I hope I demonstrated Dom 2 is a sweet choice for 13b9.)
    Ah! Let's be clear, you're saying F mel over G13b9. That would be G Ab Bb C D E F G.

    I'll try it NOW. I don't know why I didn't think of it. If it's good I shall be grateful for ever :-)

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Is the point to the "two octave scales" approach to place tension notes, especially b/#5, b/#9, in the higher register so they don't clash with comping? Go up high enough on the piano and you can play anything!
    I think so.

    I don’t mention in the video that they have a version of the C major chord that is extended a top C#

    obviously you can’t sit on that note in lower register.

    You can go further with this, but there are practical limitations to what one can do on a saxophone.

  24. #23

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    Christian -

    That works nicely, thanks, I'm very grateful. Well, that's that :-)

    Of course it's got the E in it. Still don't know why I didn't see that myself!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think so.

    I don’t mention in the video that they have a version of the C major chord that is extended a top C#

    obviously you can’t sit on that note in lower register.

    You can go further with this, but there are practical limitations to what one can do on a saxophone.
    I was thinking of this, played on a piano:

    hold a C major chord in the bass register, then play an arpeggio of perfect fifths: C G D A E B F# ... C#(!)

    The C# doesn't sound jarring. It sounds logical.