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  1. #1

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    How's this for a rant?:

    In the key of C, Fm is a dominant that resolves back to C like Bb7 would.
    In the key of F minor, C is a dominant that resolves back to Fm like C7 would.

    Are Fm and C both dominant to one another AND tonic to one another? Is this not a little odd?


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I don't find it odd. It just depends on which direction the voices are moving.

    Fm to C downward movement.

    C to Fm upward movement.

    The ceiling is 8' above the floor.

    The floor is also 8' below the ceiling.

    .

  4. #3

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    But the ceiling can't work as a floor to the floor nor the floor as the ceiling to a ceiling

  5. #4

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    Here is a thread truly worth ignoring.

  6. #5

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    It is true that f minor triad resolves to C Major triad.
    It is also true that C Major triad resolves to f minor triad.

    so what?

    "resolves to" is not equivalent "dominant of".
    For example subdominant also resolves to tonic.

    Btw your sample will not work with C7 and also not with fm7 (it works indeed with fm6) and here is why: neither fm triad and C triad has no tension in itself, when you hear any of them as a single chord out of context they lead nowhere, instead resting points. So their tonal function only can be feel and interpreted in context.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Here is a thread truly worth ignoring.
    Don't be grumpy, I'm a nice guy, just a little confused.
    Last edited by alez; 10-26-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    It is true that f minor triad resolves to C Major triad.
    It is also true that C Major triad resolves to f minor triad.

    so what?

    "resolves to" is not equivalent "dominant of".
    For example subdominant also resolves to tonic.
    I haven't written this clearly. I mean that they are actually both DOMINANT to each other AND TONIC to each other. C can be used in place of C7b9 (to Fm) and Fm can be used in place of G7 (to C).
    Last edited by alez; 10-26-2020 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #8

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    Fm7 is just Bb7sus (in that context).

  10. #9

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    Okay, I thought that was pretty unique. Can you name a different pair of chords that work both ways like these?

  11. #10

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    Have a look at a 'Tonnetz' - you might enjoy the way you can navigate harmony using Neo-Riemannian theory.

  12. #11

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    Not sure I understand. Fm is IVm in the key of c, that’s a subdominant function.

    C is the V, dominant, in Fm

  13. #12

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  14. #13

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    Just like Bdim can function as rootless Bb7b9, Fmin7 can function as a rootless Bb7sus. Compare the chord tones, just an inversion.

  15. #14

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    The top post is an interesting observation but doesn’t seem terribly odd. Cmajor and Fminor are obviously different keys, so triads will have different functions in them. It doesn’t undermine the value of the concepts of tonic, dominant and subdominant, which is what the title of this thread implies.

  16. #15

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    after you have firmly established diatonic harmonic relationships of chord cycles and primary and secondary resolution cycles..
    and then begin to integrate other keys and their harmonic functions via substitutions and devices such as ..bIII7..bVi7 ..bII7..bV7 into the mix you begin to see/hear
    that any and every note / chord can be used in many harmonic (and melodic) functions..and that chord "names" become a block to going beyond what is
    possible

    thus CMaj7..could be an altered AbMaj7 or altered Eb13..and all the preceding harmonic cycles that would lead to use those chords in a functional way.

    this kind of study takes alot of time and experimentation to get under your fingers and use in improvisational ways.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Don't be grumpy, I'm a nice guy, just a little confused.
    Hey I like to be grumpy. But okay, as it relates to types of resolutions and what relationships they imply, I official grant permission for you to discuss it.

    You were aware that I am the Legitimate Topic Police, right? Right? Anybody home? Just kidding!....

  18. #17

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    Turns out that sometimes nuts are beans.

    WUT

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez

    Fm is a dominant that resolves back to C
    No, it's not. G7 is the dominant that resolves to C.

    like Bb7 would.
    No, it's not. Bb7 is the dominant that resolves to Eb.


    In the key of F minor, C is a dominant that resolves back to Fm like C7 would.
    No, it's not. C is a major chord. C7 is the dominant.

    I'm a nice guy, just a little confused.
    Not any more.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Turns out that sometimes nuts are beans.

    WUT
    I Legume that...and fruits may be called vegetables ..ahh..and the list goes on...the ol' To-mato/Tom-ato trick...which is a fruit ??

  21. #20

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    It's about the tonal center. Take this simple 2 chord pair

    4/4 Dm | C | Dm C | Dm ||

    4/4 C | Dm | C Dm | C ||

    Example one is in Dm and the second in C.
    Context can alter the relationship.
    I believe that is what you are describing.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    I haven't written this clearly. I mean that they are actually both DOMINANT to each other AND TONIC to each other. C can be used in place of C7b9 (to Fm) and Fm can be used in place of G7 (to C).
    It turns out lawson-stone had right.

  23. #22

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    Cashew nuts, man. What is up with those?

    BTW don't eat too many. There's are some ... horrific .. stories.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Cashew nuts, man. What is up with those?

    BTW don't eat too many. There's are some ... horrific .. stories.
    How come? Reckon I could eat a sack full.

  25. #24

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    Don’t google it

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Turns out that sometimes nuts are beans.

    WUT
    And one gets bean milk.

  27. #26

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    ... well of course I did, and now I wish I hadn't... I can't unsee it now, and, naturally, I'll never eat another cashew again. Good lord, I had no idea! Hands down the most frightening thing I've ever seen!!

  28. #27

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    Chords can be like that sometimes. Say you're in C and you just use a G triad for the V. You can treat the G as a 1 if it suits your purpose. Mozart did that. Or another example would be using the 2 chord as a minor 1. Body and soul kind of does that. Starts out on the Eb- implying that it's a minor 1 when it's really the 2 of Db major.

  29. #28

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    Very true Clint, a process sometimes tonicisation... You can see it a lot in all tonal music.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    Chords can be like that sometimes. Say you're in C and you just use a G triad for the V. You can treat the G as a 1 if it suits your purpose. Mozart did that. Or another example would be using the 2 chord as a minor 1. Body and soul kind of does that. Starts out on the Eb- implying that it's a minor 1 when it's really the 2 of Db major.

  31. #30

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    Thx!