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  1. #1

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    In the old days of jazz, it seems like the tonic chords were minor 6 or major 6. Today people play both 6h and 7th chords as the tonic chord but it's a lot more common for these chords to just be automatically notated as major or minor 7th chords.

    Does anybody know when and why this happened? I guess in the post bop era people got a lot more used to the edge that 7th gives to tonic chords. That's probably more true for the major than the minor tonics. Is that the reason or is it just the laziness when writing charts?

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  3. #2

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    When I’m writing a chord chart for myself I usually write the tonic as the triad name and leave choice of 6th or major 7th up to the player. I’d only write 6th or major 7th on the chart if it’s essential to play one or the other.

  4. #3

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    So I think we are looking at the 60s. Certainly Kind of Blue popularised the more floating m7/m11 tonality for minor, and I hear major seventh chords in Jim Halls playing on the Bridge for instance; but I obviously haven’t checked out everything so I’d love to hear from others.

    However you can listen to Bix Beiderbecke records and hear them ending on major ninth chords... So ending chords were always more complex. Maj7#11 common in the 50s.

    And melodically, playing the seventh on major chords was in play since the 20s; so what you get is composite major seventh and higher chords all the time, but you don’t get the chord used as an accompanying sound.

    For this reason Errol Garners Misty doesn’t count..... He plays I Major triad one hand, iii minor in the other... NBD

    (But neat chronologies are often a bit suspect.)

    So what you are really asking is when did the accompaniment become reconciled with the improvisation, and to me that says two words - Bill and Evans.

    (major sevenths have been used for centuries of course but always treated as dissonances. Jazz relaxed that function.)

  5. #4

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    You might enjoy this article, "You've Been Taught The Wrong Chord Tones."

    You’ve Been Taught the Wrong Chord Tones | Jason Lyon on Music

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    In the old days of jazz, it seems like the tonic chords were minor 6 or major 6. Today people play both 6h and 7th chords as the tonic chord but it's a lot more common for these chords to just be automatically notated as major or minor 7th chords.

    Does anybody know when and why this happened? I guess in the post bop era people got a lot more used to the edge that 7th gives to tonic chords. That's probably more true for the major than the minor tonics. Is that the reason or is it just the laziness when writing charts?
    I think the style of music changed. A lot of swing/dance music probably needed M6 sounds. Ballads in jazz sound better with M7's although they may sound better ending with a M6.

    I don't know about minors. I don't know that many standards that start with a m6. Except Summertime, of course :-)

  7. #6
    Yes, I think it's useful to separate harmony and improvisation when considering the choice of 6th vs 7th for tonic chords.

    o Use of 7ths as tonics when comping. Maybe this even has two subcategories. The ending tonic chord vs other tonic chords in the form (Imin6 vs Imin7 for minor blues for example). Since the various dissonances in the ending tonic chords are also often used to create interesting effects.

    o Use of 7ths as emphasized notes during improvisation against minor or major 6 chords (note we are not talking about 7ths as passing scale notes).
    Last edited by Tal_175; 10-13-2020 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    You might enjoy this article, "You've Been Taught The Wrong Chord Tones."

    You’ve Been Taught the Wrong Chord Tones | Jason Lyon on Music
    Ha I know Jason, haven't seen him for years...

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Yes, I think it's useful to separate harmony and improvisation when considering the choice of 6th vs 7th for tonic chords.

    o Use of 7ths as tonics when comping. Maybe this even has two subcategories. The ending tonic chord vs other tonic chords in the form (Imin6 vs Imin7 for minor blues for example). Since various dissonances in the ending tonic chords are also often used to create interesting effects.

    o Use of 7ths as emphasized notes during improvisation against minor or major 6 chords (note we are not talking about 7ths as passing scale notes).
    SO, I'm thinking for the former (minor 6 with maj 7) - Billy Strayhorn.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I don't know about minors. I don't know that many standards that start with a m6. Except Summertime, of course :-)
    Two, in fact. The original has Bm6 moving up a tone to C#m6 that acts like a dominant (F#9/C#). Far preferable to the min7-based faux-funky modal vamps wheeled out behind well-meaning chanteuses.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Two, in fact. The original has Bm6 moving up a tone to C#m6 that acts like a dominant (F#9/C#).
    Dunno, mate, all I know is Am6 - E7 (Bm6 on a hot day :-)), that does it for me. I have heard it, and played it, in Gm but that key sounds dull to my senses.

    min7-based faux-funky modal vamps
    Saints preserve us. I sincerely hope I'm never exposed to one of those

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes;[URL="tel:1067962"
    1067962[/URL]]You might enjoy this article, "You've Been Taught The Wrong Chord Tones."

    You’ve Been Taught the Wrong Chord Tones | Jason Lyon on Music
    thats sooo great , thanks that’s gold for me

  13. #12

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    I taught myself to play in the late ’50’s with the help of some books, starting with a book of folk songs by Richard Dyer Bennett belonging to my mother. I soon acquired several more books including the Mel Bay Orchestral Chord System, George M. Smith Guitar Method, the Mickey Baker books and Ronny Lee’s method book. All of these seemed to freely swap M6 & Ma7 so I just always did that and never found it to be a problem.

    About 16-17 years ago a guy sitting in on ‘bone with my big band said he liked my playing and would I like to sub in his traditional jazz group for six months while his regular player dealt with medical issues? I had spent my whole playing life up to that point ducking that question—I’m really not a fan of that style of jazz. I have some set excuses for saying no, but he waved them off and and asked if I’d just attend a rehearsal. Since it turned out I knew several of his players from other settings and knew them to be excellent, I agreed, and wound up doing it for six months, as well as subbing with a couple of other trad groups a few times. About the first thing I learned doing it was that tonics needed to be M6. I mean really—every time I played a Ma7 it set my teeth on edge. It took me a bit to stop alternating them; I’m so used to starting tunes on a Ma7 that it was a struggle. My long-term solution to this problem was to go back to plan A and never play that music again.

    As for the referenced article, I’ve never found Ma7 to be the least abrasive playing any music since the ’30’s, jazz tunes or standards. It must just be from not knowing any better all these years.

    Danny W.

  14. #13

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    Setting history aside for a moment.

    As a tonic function chord, major sevenths are a bit of a tricky to use chord for a number of reasons. I think its best to see them as a colour you can use rather than a major chord for all occasions. They generally work best as IV chords, and as I chords you have to be a little careful... A C on a C major 7 can be an awkward sound, unless you really want that dissonance.

    Also, not all inversions are usable, third inversion is really not a tonic function sound to me.

    I think a lot of modern players like them for exactly those reasons!

    Sometimes the best move is to omit the seventh from tonic chords. Add9's are underrated!

  15. #14

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    When I went to my first Gypsy Swing session, I was immediately politely asked to play M6 instead of Ma7 or (God forbid) M7 chords. As dominants, ok, but the tonics were always 6th chords.

  16. #15

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    Also for trad/early jazz - straight major and minor is quite often a better option than 6th even... you need to be especially careful with m6's. I have been told off about this lol. 'Stop playing like a Gypsy Jazz guitarist' haha.

    But even later in the history of jazz - often voicings are much simpler than you think. Bud Powell's right hand was not so far away from Harlem stride... 10ths, 6ths, bare 7ths.... Monk of course, x100...

    What I have learned over the years ... be sensitive to voicings... Just because two chords share a scale, doesn't make them the same sound....

  17. #16

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    Minor 7th chords are easiest to play, though. Just a finger across the strings.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    Minor 7th chords are easiest to play, though. Just a finger across the strings.
    OTOH these shapes

    5 x 4 5 5 x
    x 2 3 2 3 x

    Basically do for everything that isn't a major or diminished chord... :-)

  19. #18
    If I'm playing over a Min7 tonic chord, I don't like the sound of the 6th. I tend to play b6. But I know a lot of people don't have a problem with 6th played against Min7. I have hard time.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Setting history aside for a moment.

    As a tonic function chord, major sevenths are a bit of a tricky to use chord for a number of reasons. I think its best to see them as a colour you can use rather than a major chord for all occasions. They generally work best as IV chords, and as I chords you have to be a little careful... A C on a C major 7 can be an awkward sound, unless you really want that dissonance.

    Also, not all inversions are usable, third inversion is really not a tonic function sound to me.

    I think a lot of modern players like them for exactly those reasons!

    Sometimes the best move is to omit the seventh from tonic chords. Add9's are underrated!
    I try to follow Barry’s lead and play “the 6th on the fifth” for that Maj7 sound — G6 as a rootless CMaj7 gives 3rd, 5th, Maj7, 9th and avoids that “awkward” C.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    I try to follow Barry’s lead and play “the 6th on the fifth” for that Maj7 sound — G6 as a rootless CMaj7 gives 3rd, 5th, Maj7, 9th and avoids that “awkward” C.
    Why would that be better than just thinking of the same chord as a "3 to 9" sub ? In other words Min7 from the 3rd...

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Why would that be better than just thinking of the same chord as a "3 to 9" sub ? In other words Min7 from the 3rd...
    In sub terms it isn’t any better, just a different way of describing the same structure (although potentially voiced differently), but in terms of a repertoire of available chord movement Barry’s formulation belongs to a broader and more consistent system of navigating through the harmony. G6 gives access to a different scale of chords than C6 although both contain Em7.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sometimes the best move is to omit the seventh from tonic chords. Add9's are underrated!
    G7Alt: xx3444
    C(Add9) xx2533

    Movement by a half step x 4!

  24. #23

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    Bit of contrary as well

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    I try to follow Barry’s lead and play “the 6th on the fifth” for that Maj7 sound — G6 as a rootless CMaj7 gives 3rd, 5th, Maj7, 9th and avoids that “awkward” C.
    Yeah that's a really nice sound. That's the same thing as the commonly used sub iiim7 on I, Em7 on C in this case.

    I just like using the G triad as well. And the Em triad.

    As you say it gets rid of a lot of those problems.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    If I'm playing over a Min7 tonic chord, I don't like the sound of the 6th. I tend to play b6. But I know a lot of people don't have a problem with 6th played against Min7. I have hard time.
    m7 is a profoundly different sound to m6. In CST the 13th/6th is usually considered an 'avoid note' in Dorian (that is on a m7 chord)

    OTOH usually if you play b7 on a m6 chord, you resolve it down a half step to 6... maj7 on the other hand is cool.

  27. #26

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    What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.
    Exhibit 1.


  29. #28

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    Blue Bossa - tonic Cm7? That’s the Real Book, other (IMO more correct) charts say Cm (Colorado Cookbook) or Cm6 (557 Jazz Standards, I forget the name of the pianist who compiled it). NRB v.1 (Sher) has Cm6. Try it — you’ll like it!

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Blue Bossa - tonic Cm7? That’s the Real Book, other (IMO more correct) charts say Cm (Colorado Cookbook) or Cm6 (557 Jazz Standards, I forget the name of the pianist who compiled it). NRB v.1 (Sher) has Cm6. Try it — you’ll like it!
    Just saying it's out there. The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.
    Or an accurate one. But you’re right, it’s out there, mistakes and all.

  32. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.
    The charts of minor blues standards usually show the tonic chord as I minor 7. I'm not saying that's correct.
    I just did a quick search, google brings up the tutorial page of this forum which shows Min7 as the I chord:
    Minor Blues Chord Progressions [11 Variations]

  33. #32
    One thing nice about minor blues with min6 chords is you can think major blues up a 4th.
    For example C min 6 is a close relative of F7. C min 6 11, is basically an inversion of F7.

  34. #33

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    Barry and Dexter seem to like Cm6 on Blue Bossa


  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Barry and Dexter seem to like Cm6 on Blue Bossa

    Transcription:

  36. #35

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    Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound in the solo.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-15-2020 at 09:32 AM.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound on this tune.
    In the solo, and Cm6dim for the comp.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    In the solo, and Cm6dim for the comp.
    sorry yes that's what I meant

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound on this tune.
    I heard at least on CmM7 chord and some Cm6add9s. I don’t care for the Cm7 in the Real Book, and I’m glad I’m in good company.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Just saying it's out there. The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.
    I always play Blue Bossa with going from a minor 9th chords to a min7 (with no 5th).

    E.g. Cm9, Cm7, Fm9, Fm7.

  41. #40

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    When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    I heard at least on CmM7 chord and some Cm6add9s. I don’t care for the Cm7 in the Real Book, and I’m glad I’m in good company.
    Yes those two (esp in the comping I meant the solo.) Definitely more of a melodic minor tinge to that chord....

    A lot of great jazz lines on minor seem to work the lower fifth of the scale heavily

    1 2 b3 4 5

    The 6th or 7th is often deployed as a dramatic or colouristic note to my ears. And the b6 is used (Joe Henderson uses it in his first lines on BB) but obviously sounds more dissonant over the minor.

    Oh - a good b7 tune is Mr PC

    Also Footprints really showcases the b7 on minor

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?
    Dunno. Django played them though. Manoir de mes Reves. Oriental Strut has quartal harmony.

    Douce Ambience stresses the b7 in the bridge, but I think that’s more of an appoggiatura. Dorian mode though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-16-2020 at 05:09 AM.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I always play Blue Bossa with going from a minor 9th chords to a min7 (with no 5th).

    E.g. Cm9, Cm7, Fm9, Fm7.
    Yeah it’s not ‘wrong’; it’s more a Wes sound to my ears. If you listen to a lot of 60s Wes you are going to hear more of a m7 sound on minor for instance. Trane and Wayne as well. Anything post Kind of Blue

  45. #44

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    So in Nica’s dream the first two chords are often given as Bbm(maj7) and Abm(maj7) but in this solo Wes constantly shifts back and forth between the natural and flattened 7. Which was typical for him on all minor chords.

  46. #45

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    I don’t know if it’s true, but I once read something about Joe Pass considering all of the notes between the 5th and octave to be fair game when playing minor.

    Scales? We don’t need no stinking scales, just play a line that sounds good.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    I don’t know if it’s true, but I once read something about Joe Pass considering all of the notes between the 5th and octave to be fair game when playing minor.

    Scales? We don’t need no stinking scales, just play a line that sounds good.
    I think that's pretty much how I view it. I mean it's not rocket science really. The 6 and the 7 have a strong jazz colour... the b7 has a vibe too, but different, more like major on minor sound. And the b6 is super dissonant which is also expressive, and it is used in many jazz lines.

    And any minor will work in any of the 'melodic minor' subs... So you don't have to be limited to playing 'melodic minor' scales, you can play melodies if you understand that minor sound intuitively.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-16-2020 at 05:11 AM.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?
    In the early '60s after the music of Jobim became more widely known.

  49. #48

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    But weren't the Bossa guys influenced themselves by Barney Kessel? Did he use 6/9's?

  50. #49

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    BTW it's an obvious point but I think part of the reason why m7 weakens or neutralises the minor colour is that while m6 and m(maj7) are more complex tonalities and don't contain a major triad:

    Am6 = A bass + C 'Lydian' triad (1 3 #4)
    Am(maj7) = A bass + C Augmented triad (1 3 #5)

    Am7 contains a major triad

    Am7 = A bass + C major triad

    Which tends to draw the ear.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But weren't the Bossa guys influenced themselves by Barney Kessel? Did he use 6/9's?
    Jobim felt critics overestimated the influence jazz had on his harmonic development. He believed that Debussy and Ravel were much more important.

    Yes, Kessel, like many other jazz guitarists played 6/9 chords but I associate that sound mostly with their post '60s recordings. I imagine the employment of left-hand 'Type B' rootless 6/9 voicings (C6/9 = A, D, E, G) by pianists such as Bill Evans, Ahmad Jamal and Wynton Kelly in the late '50s also helped establish their regular use as a tonic. Maybe we should start another thread like our 'altered scale' discussion to get to the root of all this (pardon the pun!)?

    Clare Fisher strikes me as an important transitional figure as well. He was one of the first musicians in the US to become a Brazilian music expert and his arranging skills were admired by Herbie Hancock who stated, "Clare Fisher was a major influence on my harmonic concept. He and Bill Evans and Ravel and Gil Evans. You know, that's where it really came from".