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  1. #1

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    Is bVII7 a predominant (such as in G7 as sub for Bm7b5, followed by E7b9, resolving to Am as I) or is it a dominant (such as in a "backdoor" Bb7 resolving to C as I)?

    The possible answer that it depends on the destination I being major or minor doesn't seem convincing as soon as modal interchange comes into consideration...

    Thoughts?

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Is bVII7 a predominant (such as in G7 as sub for Bm7b5, followed by E7b9, resolving to Am as I) or is it a dominant (such as in a "backdoor" Bb7 resolving to C as I)?

    The possible answer that it depends on the destination I being major or minor doesn't seem convincing as soon as modal interchange comes into consideration...

    Thoughts?
    Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G7, so I would call it a dominant function. When you say “predominant” do you mean subdominant (e.g. IV) or secondary dominant (as in V of V)?

  4. #3

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    I really like the character of the bVII7 chord. It's a really distinct and common sound especially in rock, blues, roots-americana music.

    Not sure of it's function, it seems to be a thing of it's own. In A the bVII7 G7... I think G7 chord tone playing mixed in with G mixolydian and/or the G blues scales works well. Theoretically you'd think G lydian dominant would be good, but that doesn't sound as good to me.

    More of a jazz thing there's (in A again) Dmaj7 to Dmin7 to G7 to A or I like this better Dmaj7 to Dmin(maj7) to G7 to A. For me, mostly chord tone stuff (with maybe some chromatic stuff which is part of playing chord tone stuff). More of a subdominant approach I suppose.
    Attached Images Attached Images bVII7 in functional harmony-bvii7-2-png 
    Last edited by fep; 09-28-2020 at 01:58 PM.

  5. #4

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    I lump chords into some basic bins: I chords, i chords, V chords, IV chords and iv chords. The bVII7 is in the iv chord bin (the tell is the b6 note of the scale = the b7 of the bVII7).

    SoOOoo... the iv I progression (and similarly the bVII7 I) is "the backdoor" resolution. What do they call iv I in classical music -- minor plagal cadence?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    When you say “predominant” do you mean subdominant (e.g. IV) or secondary dominant (as in V of V)?
    I mean a chord serving a purpose similar to that of a Dm7 that is part of a Dm7 - G7 - C.

    The logic is that a Bm7b5 is a functional equivalent to the Dm7 in the example above, when used in the construct Bm7b6 - E7b9 - Am. G7 is a common sub for that Bm7b5. G7 is bVII7 to the destination Am.

  7. #6

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    Observations:

    primary major reference


    G7 C ..... Bm7b5 C ..... Fma7 C ..... Dm7 C

    relative minor

    E7 Am .... G#o7 Am or G7 Am .... Dm7 Am ..... Bm7b5 Am

    parallel minor

    G7 Cm .... Bo7 Cm or Bb7 Cm ..... Fm7 C ...... Dm7b5 C

    relative major of parallel minor

    Bb7 Eb .... Dm7b5 Eb ...... Abma7 Eb ..... Fm7 Eb

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    More of a jazz thing there's (in A again) Dmaj7 to Dmin7 to G7 to A or I like this better Dmaj7 to Dmin(maj7) to G7 to A. For me, mostly chord tone stuff (with maybe some chromatic stuff which is part of playing chord tone stuff). More of a subdominant approach I suppose.
    This looks like a modulation, does the A sound like the new key or am I confused here? Some sort of sophisticated backdoor to A?

  9. #8

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    Reading different people's views on a specific aspect is enjoyable and a lot of fun

  10. #9

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    Arent all dominants built minor thirds apart subs for one another, i.e. a dim7 chord built on the dominant note - the tritone sub definitely is, and bVII7 is used in a dominant function, but dont hear to much about III7 - I

  11. #10

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    You might also think of it as a suspension.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    This looks like a modulation, does the A sound like the new key or am I confused here? Some sort of sophisticated backdoor to A?
    I think of it as the Home on The Range Changes (A popular American Folk Song)... but with an added backdoor

    Oh (C) give me a (C7) home where the (F) buffalo (Fm) roam and the (C) skies are not (D7) cloudy all (G7) day.

    Oh (C) give me a (C7) home where the (F) buffalo (Fm) roam (Bb9) and the (C) skies are not (D7) cloudy all (G7) day.

    C to C7 to F to Fm to Bb7 = I to V/IV to IV to iv to bVII7 to I. (V/IV is spoken as "five of four")
    Last edited by fep; 09-28-2020 at 07:11 PM.

  13. #12

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    IIRC, my 2nd year undergrad classical harmony course taught bVII as a sub for iv in a minor key.

    For example, in the key of A natural minor (C major, no sharps no flats) G- is bVII. You can consider G- to be iv of the naturally occurring iv that is D- in this key . A "secondary subdominant" if you will.

    Our modern sense of harmony borrows things from parallel minors with abandon :-) so this sub "works" in A major, as well. That is, you can sub G- for D major.

    HTH

    SJ

  14. #13

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    iv minor or Bb7 (usually interchangeable) commonly go to I.
    Notice this pair of chords are also the extensions (a 3rd higher) of
    ii half dim and V7b9 to I (What Is This Thing Called Love?)

  15. #14

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    I tend to view bVII7 as a dominant function chord.

    Barry Harris sees it as one of the brothers and sisters.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I tend to view bVII7 as a dominant function chord.
    Yes, that is probably a better explanation of its use in a major key. The OP asked about functional harmony tho and the sub for minor-key iv is the functional origin of this sub. It's too early into my first cup of coffee to think too hard about this, but I'd imagine that bVII in major is non-functional chromatic harmony.

    So, to get back to the OP's question, it can be functional or non-functional, depending on whether the key of the moment is minor or major, respectively.

  17. #16

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    My two cents,
    There is first the basic principle of dominant 7th chords having a relationship to diminished 7th chords e.g., C7b9 has a direct relationship to Dbdim7 since C7b9 without the root actually is Dbdim7 which repeat every minor 3rd (Dbdim7 = Edim7 = Gdim7 = Bbdim7).
    That being said jazz musicians will take a ii – V – I progression e.g., |Dm7 |G7 | Cmaj7 |and expand the ii V up a minor 3d so you could now have |Dm7 G7 |Fm7 Bb7 | Cmaj7 |. In this way not only can G7 resolve to C but Bb7 can also resolve to C. You can see clear examples of this in songs like “Stella By Starlight” and “I Should Care”. Expanding on this concept one could move the ii V up yet another minor 3rd and get |Dm7 G7|Abm7 Db7|Cmaj7 | and now you get the classic tritone substitution. Jazz improvisors can often freely uses these kinds of substitutions as both accompanists and as soloists as variations of standard ii V I progressions. I hope that helps.

  18. #17

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    That’s what Barry means by brothers and sisters

  19. #18

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    stepping outside of functional harmony (diatonic) any set of notes can be uses with/against any other set of notes in a harmonic/melodic context

    players such as Van Epps Ted Greene Ben Monder and others that have the vision and hearing to "think" in more that one key at a time and utilize counter point
    and contrary motion .. that show us an amazing dynamic of the nature of music..its NOT constrained by rules..harmonic or melodic

    you can connect any two chords together and make it sound natural or not..depending on your view..

    when I studied diminished and augmented theory and discovered all the possibilities within those chord structures and scales the idea that music is in constant motion
    became a vivid reality..to a musician its the heartbeat..it cant stop and be labeled just "one thing" as many other forces are demanding its attention

    from the six note augmented scale there are three major and three minor triads in major third intervals..this is the essence of Coltranes "Giant Steps) and many other works in jazz and classical
    music

    when we think in pure diatonic terms the C major scale..well there is CMaj7 (C E G B) and the inversions

    just using those four notes..quite a few melodic phrases can be created as well as other harmonic possibilities..upper partials of alterend dominants or other major and minor chords

    CMaj7 = Eb13b9#5 = AbMa7#5#9 = Ami9

    Now viewing these possibilities the next chord choices are expanded as well as melodic ideas ..and this type of thinking should energize the creative juices in new and veteran players

    for me the bVii7 is as functional-in any key-as any other chord ..resolving..passing or static..

    music is organic ..it can move in any or all directions..and be beautiful and healing

  20. #19

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    I'm grateful and overwhelmed. Thanks for this, it's really useful.

    It seems like most arguments point to the chord falling in the dominant category.

    In the case of the "home" I in a major key, that's indeed what I've found in most songs, bVII7 going directly to I (or IVm going directly to I).

    Yet, I'm finding it as a preceeding chord to a V-I wherever the I is a temporary tonal centre, not I of the key.

    1) Bye Bye Blackbird bridge (I7 chord as the tonal centre is IIm):
    I7 | % | % | VI7 |
    IIm |

    2) Just a Gigolo bridge (I7 chord as the tonal centre is IIm, and it has bVI7 of IIm before the it's V7 too):
    I7 | bVII7 | VI7 | IIm |

    3) It Had to Be You measure 9 (V7 as the tonal centre is VIm):
    V7 | III7 | VIm | % |

    Then, this too:

    4) Don't Fence Me In measures 14 and 30 (bVI7 as it's part of a turnaround that includes a "circle turnaround" before resolving), chords from measure 29:
    I | bVI7 VI7 | IIm7 V7 | I |

    Uh?

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzmanstever
    My two cents,
    There is first the basic principle of dominant 7th chords having a relationship to diminished 7th chords e.g., C7b9 has a direct relationship to Dbdim7 since C7b9 without the root actually is Dbdim7 which repeat every minor 3rd (Dbdim7 = Edim7 = Gdim7 = Bbdim7).
    That being said jazz musicians will take a ii – V – I progression e.g., |Dm7 |G7 | Cmaj7 |and expand the ii V up a minor 3d so you could now have |Dm7 G7 |Fm7 Bb7 | Cmaj7 |. In this way not only can G7 resolve to C but Bb7 can also resolve to C. You can see clear examples of this in songs like “Stella By Starlight” and “I Should Care”. Expanding on this concept one could move the ii V up yet another minor 3rd and get |Dm7 G7|Abm7 Db7|Cmaj7 | and now you get the classic tritone substitution. Jazz improvisors can often freely uses these kinds of substitutions as both accompanists and as soloists as variations of standard ii V I progressions. I hope that helps.
    It helps enormously because I've come across these constructs before without really "understanding" them like this. In Stella, actually, which still puzzles me here and there.

    The other day I was thinking about "C7b9 without the root actually is Dbdim7" and I don't really agree. To me at least, it's much more Edim7. My two reasons:
    • The natural context for C7b9 is the key of Fm. Edim7 has the tones E, G, Bb, Db. Dbdim7 has the tones Db, Fb, Abb, Cbb. C#dim7 has the tones C#, E, G, Bb. They are all enharmonically equivalent, but the ones in Edim7 reflect best their nature and purpose.
    • Wikipedia: Diminished seventh chord - Wikipedia

    The thing is, unlike with most chords, the nature of the dim7 chord makes the position of the bass not really defining. It's not like if you write C/A which is very confusing because it sounds minor...

  21. #20

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    It helps enormously because I've come across these constructs before without really "understanding" them like this. In Stella, actually, which still puzzles me here and there.

    The other day I was thinking about "C7b9 without the root actually is Dbdim7" and I don't really agree. To me at least, it's much more Edim7. My two reasons:
    • The natural context for C7b9 is the key of Fm. Edim7 has the tones E, G, Bb, Db. Dbdim7 has the tones Db, Fb, Abb, Cbb. C#dim7 has the tones C#, E, G, Bb. They are all enharmonically equivalent, but the ones in Edim7 reflect best their nature and purpose.
    • Wikipedia: Diminished seventh chord - Wikipedia

    The thing is, unlike with most chords, the nature of the dim7 chord makes the position of the bass not really defining. It's not like if you write C/A which is very confusing because it sounds minor..
    .

    If you read my post above..the study of the diminished scale will be a great help in understanding how the diminished chord functions in multiple ways..there are over 20 chords (major minor and dominant and altered forms of each) that can be used from the notes in the scale and these chords can substitute some functions of the diminished chord

    its an extensive study and requires alot of experimentation..but the rewards are worth the effort..there are many chord and scale "fragments" used in this kind of thinking
    example: the C diminished scale includes two tri-tone scales and their chords (7b5) a tri-tone apart.. D7b5=Ab7b5 and F7b5=B7b5 from the D (Ab) and F (B) tri-tone scale embedded in the C diminished scale..

    D Eb Gb Ab A C - D7b5 / Ab7b5

    F Gb A B C Eb - F7b5 / B7b5

    hope this gives you insight into this amazing diminished scale and its chords

  22. #21

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    Hey, thanks

    Well, surely there's something about this stack of minor thirds concept facilitating movement in different directions because I've read so many mentions here on the forums, heard about it (demonstrated on the piano) in a master class, etc.

    I'm currently exploring a few things re. that (some of the less tricky substitutions for V7) and they are starting to work for me. Great stuff

  23. #22

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    Hints

    Go

    IV--> I (which is MAJOR/DIATONIC)
    bVI or IVm or bVII7 --> I (which is MINOR/BACKDOOR right - like a IIm7b5 V7b9 I)
    bVIm or bII7 --> I (which is ALTERED)

    Leave the V7 to Mozart.

    SECRET MOVE

    Go IV-->Im

    No-one does that anymore.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Go IV-->Im

    No-one does that anymore.
    I associate that sound with Chicago bluesman, Magic Sam - blues progressions where the I is minor and the IV and V are both major. Charles Brown's "Black Night" is another tune based on those moves:

    "All Your Love":



    "Black Night":


  25. #24

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    thanks for contributing to my blues education :-)

    I associate it with Charlie Christian (and we don’t need to look far to find a common ancestor with electric blues)



    But also Wes, where it’s really actually very pointed, almost a gear change between G-7 C7 and F-7



    That vamp Magic Sam is playing is very 60s/modal: Wes would use that sort of thing. Also many of the great Chicago players were apparently also able to play jazz. So it’s silly to separate them.

    And others such as Cannonball



    McCoy Tyner, etc etc. You get a taste of it in bop language too. For instance in Blues for Alice the second line strongly references the mixolydian tonality going into Dm (the second chord is Em7 not Em7b5) and there are similar moments in Donna Lee etc.

    Ive not heard this taught, maybe some books/teachers make reference to it. I have to say it’s not a sound I use

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    thanks for contributing to my blues education :-)

    I associate it with Charlie Christian (and we don’t need to look far to find a common ancestor with electric blues)



    But also Wes, where it’s really actually very pointed, almost a gear change between G-7 C7 and F-7



    That vamp Magic Sam is playing is very 60s/modal: Wes would use that sort of thing. Also many of the great Chicago players were apparently also able to play jazz. So it’s silly to separate them.

    And others such as Cannonball



    McCoy Tyner, etc etc. You get a taste of it in bop language too. For instance in Blues for Alice the second line strongly references the mixolydian tonality going into Dm (the second chord is Em7 not Em7b5) and there are similar moments in Donna Lee etc.

    Ive not heard this taught, maybe some books/teachers make reference to it. I have to say it’s not a sound I use
    Excellent examples. Charlie Christian was heavily influenced by Lester Young who had a predilection for the natural 6th when playing in the minor. From a harmonic point of view, that tends to suggest the major 3rd on the IV chord.

    It's interesting to compare all the minor blues variants when it comes to the IV and V chords, especially with players like B.B. King, Magic Sam and Otis Rush who worked mostly outside of a jazz-blues context. Otis Rush's All Your Love - a different tune than the one referenced earlier - has a minor i, IV and V. All this makes sense if one considers the many different types of minor scales (harmonic, melodic, dorian, natural etc.). Then, of course there's Kenny Burrell's Chitlins Con Carne where he covers nearly all bases by turning the the I and V into 7#9 chords!

    As for Blues for Alice, I hear the 'B' in the Em7 chord as part of a descending voice-leading line: F(C) - Em7(B) - A7b9(Bb) - Dm(A) but Bird was also a big Lester fan, so you may be right there.

  27. #26

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    Well, I thought it was a melodic minor thing at first, but it's actually not.

    You frequently see stuff like major 13s on V7 chords in a minor key... A good example is pretty much all of the Wes solo above where he is strongly outlining Gm9 (the first line for example) going eventually to Fm, also Charlie Christian's A13 arpeggio on the last bar of the first A of his solo going to Dm. So we are also talking about the major third of the target tonality (I.)

    Another great example from the standards repertoire can be found in the tune Invitation.

    So it has to be a genuine major on minor modal interchange, the borrowing of major key tonalities into the minor key. (Or mixolydian on V7 going to I minor if you are a chordalist.)

    It's not THAT weird. Think about Bill Evans penchant for playing a natural 9th on the IIm7b5 chord.. so F# on a Em7b5 in Beautiful Love going to A7, Dm, and that's a fairly common textbook choice for that chord (Locrian #2) so is not 'beyond the pale' even for the type of 'jazz' theory texts that seem compelled to tidy up jazz, Hans Groiner style.

    Another choice (that I like and shows up a lot) is the half whole sound on V7 in a minor key; G13b9 into Cm for instance.

    And yet the simple suggestion - swap in the major key dominant/mixolydian mode into the minor key - is rarely heard, at least in the books I've looked at.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-05-2020 at 08:15 AM.

  28. #27

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    I should leave the V7-I to Mozart if only because the advice really made me laugh

    Thanks for the "hints", it makes a great summary

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    I should leave the V7-I to Mozart if only because the advice really made me laugh
    Yeah they used to make music for retards back then (jk)

    Thanks for the "hints", it makes a great summary
    Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant? TBH I don't seperate out the two functions. A lot of jazzers don't.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G7, so I would call it a dominant function. When you say “predominant” do you mean subdominant (e.g. IV) or secondary dominant (as in V of V)?
    I’m not much of a theorist, but since Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G9 (without the root), if I’m playing in the key of A major I think of G7 as a sub for Dm6. Dm6 is the iv in the key of A minor, which is subdominant. So couldn’t one think of a bVII7 chord as a subdominant borrowed from the minor key?

    On the other hand, in the key of A major Dm6 pulls strongly back to the tonic chord, and G7 does the same. Pulling back to the tonic chord is a dominant function.

    Of course when I’m playing I don’t worry about the terminology—just how it sounds.
    Last edited by KirkP; 10-06-2020 at 02:41 PM.

  31. #30

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    I think so. TBH there’s less to be gained by making Dom/subdom distinction than there is by not making it and just putting the chords together into a general umbrella.

    I would make a distinction between resolving chords with tritones in (7, o7, m6, m7b5) and consonant/blending (maj7, m7 etc) but even with the m7b5 that’s sort of ambiguous.

    Chords with tritones sound like they want to go somewhere more than chords without. So if you want a more sophisticated floating sound get rid of the tritone. Not playing the 3rd on the dominant is the most common way to do this. Backdoor progressions do this for you.... Smoooooooth. See the rise of ‘baby boomer’ soul/black church influenced harmony that uses the Vsus chord over the V7 and the backdoor over the straight dominants. But this goes back to Prez at least. gospel harmonies favour a 6 note major scale scale with no 7th. Some have said this goes back to West African harmonic practices.

    Even Brahms was in on some of this game, starting to relax the role of the leading tone and the V-I cadence, but it’s become one of the most common moves in popular music (although judging from Demi Lovato and Bruno Mars the tonicising II V is back in fashion.)

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah they used to make music for retards back then (jk)
    So Jonathan Kreisberg thinks he's better than Mozart?

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    So Jonathan Kreisberg thinks he's better than Mozart?
    Yes (jk)

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yes (jk)
    ...and he prefers prog rock groups? Interesting!

  35. #34

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    A see similarity between these comments about tonicisation and eliminating of tritones and Im6 vs. Im7 as tonal centres (Im tonic function)... strangely, m6 (with a tritone) seems more accepted as Im tonic function than m7...

  36. #35

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    Brahms and Bruno Mars in the same sentence. Hell, yeah.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant?
    Oh, you don't earn any points for this one because that's the main reason I opened the thread, as written on the very post

  38. #37

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    The simplest way I can think of a bVII7 chord is to call it a "special function chord" and just voice lead it as a dominant chord, resolving to wherever it resolves.

    I pretty much call all dominants that, if they don't resolve to their fourth (so they'd be some kind of secondary dominant), or to a half step lower (so they would be tritone subs).

    Through substitutions, it can become many different things, but being a Dom7 chord, it's always creating tension that needs to be released. That tension and release movement is more important than the actual chords used.

  39. #38

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    In any kind of theory or analysis there's always a tension between how detailed you go and how general.

    Too general, and you risk losing any value in your analysis. If everything is just a manifestation of V7-I why is it that different progressions sound different? So it's not really analysis.

    Too specific, and you are just talking about each sound in isolation. If each chord and chord progression is its own special sound and function, that's not really analysis either. It's like mapping a country at 1:1 scale.

    So you find something in between, and CST is an example of this.... (CST's problems however lie in both its lack of generality and specificity, so you can't win em all.)

    These days, I find myself oscillating madly between the almost naively general and the exactingly specific. Weirdly, I don't think do much in between.

    Modality is important in static harmony, and efficiency of cadential resolution in things that move (which in English means, look out for half steps when going chord to chord, the more the better and especially in contrary motion.)

    bVII7 chords definitely have a modality associated with them, because that minor into major interchange is sooo familiar. The flip side is that that modality can be superimposed onto every dominant chord.

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Excellent examples. Charlie Christian was heavily influenced by Lester Young who had a predilection for the natural 6th when playing in the minor. From a harmonic point of view, that tends to suggest the major 3rd on the IV chord.

    It's interesting to compare all the minor blues variants when it comes to the IV and V chords, especially with players like B.B. King, Magic Sam and Otis Rush who worked mostly outside of a jazz-blues context. Otis Rush's All Your Love - a different tune than the one referenced earlier - has a minor i, IV and V. All this makes sense if one considers the many different types of minor scales (harmonic, melodic, dorian, natural etc.). Then, of course there's Kenny Burrell's Chitlins Con Carne where he covers nearly all bases by turning the the I and V into 7#9 chords!

    As for Blues for Alice, I hear the 'B' in the Em7 chord as part of a descending voice-leading line: F(C) - Em7(B) - A7b9(Bb) - Dm(A) but Bird was also a big Lester fan, so you may be right there.
    For the last few years my main public playing income has been solo at retirement centers before covid. I bring a boom box with the Benny Goodman Charlie Christian music and play along. It really brings a smile to a lot of older people to hear the music that was popular when they were young,it brings back good memories and return bookings.Billie Holliday works well too.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Oh, you don't earn any points for this one because that's the main reason I opened the thread, as written on the very post

    Subdominant. Right?

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Subdominant. Right?
    Nah it's Dominant. :-)

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nah it's Dominant. :-)
    What are your "chord buckets"? I have five: I, i, V, IV and iv.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    What are your "chord buckets"? I have five: I, i, V, IV and iv.
    It's either 2; tonic or untonic

    Or like 1,000s

    Of the 2 buckets, it's worth making a distinction between like Major and Minor modalities, and occasionally some other mode, so that you get basically 4+ buckets. But function is separate from modality?

    For instance, IV and iv sub in for V but not necessarily for each other... So it gets ... more complicated...So making the major/minor distinction does help a little bit.

    Everything else is voice leading, really.

  45. #44

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    Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

    Try it.....

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nah it's Dominant. :-)
    Its actually subdominant.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Its actually subdominant.
    its actually dominant

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

    Try it.....
    Its remarkable how hip backing can make a harmonically vanilla solo sound damn good...provided it's rhythmically interesting/solid.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

    Try it.....
    not dumb at all...but it does take some experimentation and understanding the "logic" ..using chord fragments from a diatonic scale over
    an altered dominant will work if done with some care and in context of the composition..much like playing a pure diatonic solo line in one key
    will sound very "out" played against diatonic chords in another..but making it sound "natural" or even better-tasty-is the trick

    Scofield comes to mind..

  50. #49

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    Yeah.... but altered chords are, hard to track melodically and harmonically in single notes. You are better off using some sort of consonance (G7 would take Db, Eb, Abm, Bbm triads for example. Or Db/Bbm penta) unless you are only interested in setting up the tonic chord. Most contemporary players do this type of thing.

    (But also minor diatonic against altered Dom backing sounds great.)

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nah it's Dominant. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Its actually subdominant.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    its actually dominant
    Ooooooooooooooooo-