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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nah it's Dominant. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Its actually subdominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    its actually dominant
    -ooooohhhh snap!

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant? TBH I don't seperate out the two functions. A lot of jazzers don't.
    The term subdominant confuses me, I'm not sure what that's supposed to really mean.

    I used "predominant" which is absolutely misleading. My bad. What I meant is "a chord that's put right before the dominant to enrich the cadence by making it a 2-step construct" much like the II in a vanilla II-V-I. I tend to consider those. It results in things like IIm being present in two categories (the one described and also the tonic one like in the simple "A" section found in many tunes, say Bye Bye Blackbird), but I'm ok with that just now because it seems in line with the way I actually hear things.

  4. #53

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    Well Peter Bernstein put it this way 'there's only I and V.... well maybe IV. Is kind of it's own thing. Sort of.'

    Sometimes things are a bit blurry, and it's OK.

  5. #54

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    I hear functions more like 'tonal areas/fields' in particular musical contexts usually -
    VIIb7 in that sense sounds to me like extended dominant.... (I do not want to say 'altered' to avoid association with common nomenclature...)
    As well as related IVm chord - I hear it functioning as dominant even in plagal turnaround (common for late Romantic classical music as some 'folky colour' harmony).


    The problem is (if there is a problem) in some particular context I can hear even IVmajor chord as an extension of dominant...


    I think that in classical this ierarchy and separaion really made sense (especially in baroque and classical period)- distnguishing three funcitons was important... first of all because of their role within a form - the key realtions had that ierarchy and it was important for musical language, for meaning.. and it was not just the relations within the key.

    Once the importance of relations between the keys decreases the functions became more and more vague... at the end of the day I feel like in the modern improvizational context it is conviction of a player that determines what functions how...

    basically subdominant often is a rudiment.. it does not function on its own - and is covered by the expansion of dominant... not totally but very often...
    Last edited by Jonah; 10-09-2020 at 09:15 AM.

  6. #55

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    So what Peter said :-)

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

    Try it.....
    I consider the head melody and I've noticed that some songs do that. The beginning of There Will Never Be Another You comes to mind. I try to reflect it on my improvisations, sort of mentally swap functions so that I play mostly in the tonic function chords instead of my natural tendency, which is the opposite.

    It's one of the ways I have to make the head melody contribute to the way I solo over the changes.

    I often practice improvisation over the head of a recording, in a loop. It helps me get the composition as a whole.
    Last edited by alez; 10-10-2020 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hints

    Go

    IV--> I (which is MAJOR/DIATONIC)
    bVI or IVm or bVII7 --> I (which is MINOR/BACKDOOR right - like a IIm7b5 V7b9 I)
    bVIm or bII7 --> I (which is ALTERED)

    Leave the V7 to Mozart.

    SECRET MOVE

    Go IV-->Im

    No-one does that anymore.
    What you're doing in the first two categories looks to me like dominant to tonic resolutions that don't feature the (alleged*) most defining characteristic of dominant to tonic movement, namely the voice leading of the leading tone to the root of the tonice chord. Your altered category is the only that has this leading.

    *I say that's the most defining because we're always told that tonal minor required the V to become major just to provide this.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    What you're doing in the first two categories looks to me like dominant to tonic resolutions that don't feature the (alleged*) most defining characteristic of dominant to tonic movement, namely the voice leading of the leading tone to the root of the tonice chord. Your altered category is the only that has this leading.

    *I say that's the most defining because we're always told that tonal minor required the V to become major just to provide this.
    Correct, and TBH I think even in the altered category I might often opt for something such as the Db on G7 that doesn't have the 3rd.

    Obviously in jazz the leading 7th might be found on the I chord.

    In this situation it makes for more propulsive voice leading to not have this note as a common tone in the 'V7' - so actually, V-7 or Vm7b5 often works as well or better. Or bVII7.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-10-2020 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #59

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    You're the king of weird

    Is that your own thing or is it off your research using jazz records?

  11. #60

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    J
    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    You're the king of weird

    Is that your own thing or is it off your research using jazz records?
    Yes it’s on the records. You often hear chords of the natural minor key over dominants. (bVII7 is one of these chords.)

    it’s not that weird? It’s more jazz guitarists have to overcomplicate everything. it wouldn’t be strange to a rock player to play E minor pent on an E7#9 at all, right?

    jazz theorists get really hung on the guidetones. The reason for this is it’s an article of faith that the chord reflects the scale. So a dominant scale must have the 3 and b7 in, right?

    This is the central idea of chord scale theory. Thing is, as obvious and self evident as this idea seems this is not always the case in the music.

    so for example, it’s really common for jazz musicians to play minor chords against dominant. Hang on what’s that word starting with b? Rhymes with ‘glues’? I’ll get it in a minute.

    The best example I can think of is All Blues. The theory scale to play on D7#9 Eb7#9 are the altered scales. It sounds a bit much, doesn’t seem to fit the mood of the song. Confused me for years, until I realised; the text book scale choices don’t reflect actual jazz practice of this era.

    Listen to the album. Now try D and Eb minor seventh or minor pentatonic. Much better, right?

    And that’s a common beginners tune.

    The melody of Blue Bossa is another example I use all the time. That’s a C natural minor melody over a C minor II V I pure and simple.

    The resistance I’ve had to this idea from people is amazing. But it’s on the records.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-10-2020 at 03:20 PM.

  12. #61

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    Another example can be found in the teaching of the Tristano school. They call the use of the F melodic minor on G7 (the Dorian b2) the Dominant II scale. Dom I and III are the familiar Lyd Dom and Altered sounds right?

    (Before anyone jumps in the real scales are a little more complex and have different notes in the 1st and 2nd octave, but I’ll pass that over)


    This sound shows up in many of the Charlie Parker, Charlie Christian and Lester Young solos they were obsessed by. And of course it relates intimately or our friend bVII7 (with a #11 this time.)

    This scale seems to have disappeared from almost all jazz theory texts I’ve seen as a choice for V7 chords. Doesn’t fit the CST article of faith, right?

    Lastly, can't believe I forgot this but is super relevant; on a stream Barry Harris talked about lines on ii-V-I's ... so we understand that Dm7b5 G7 Cm is subbed Bb7 Bo7 Cm (basically) so we are using Bb dominant (mixo) on Bb7 and the C harmonic minor on G7b9?

    Well, Barry said, don't use the harmonic minor. Just play on the Bb7. Reason he gave is you can get stuck in harmonic minor and there's more stuff you are likely to know on Bb7. You then voicelead to the target chord (Cm minor in this case) by using an enclosure or whatever. you might never hear the leading tone or 3rd of the V7 chord in the line.

    So you play bVII7-I
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-10-2020 at 03:21 PM.

  13. #62

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    A couple of older musicians that I spoke to would talk about playing a phrase on the ii chord then playing the same phrase a minior third up on the V .

    So in Cmaj you get Dm7 Fm7 Cmaj

    Same kind of thing and yeah , there's no golden rule in the universe that says you have to play leading tones everywhere . The great players can ' skate over ' changes or dig right into them at will .

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    A couple of older musicians that I spoke to would talk about playing a phrase on the ii chord then playing the same phrase a minior third up on the V .

    So in Cmaj you get Dm7 Fm7 Cmaj

    Same kind of thing and yeah , there's no golden rule in the universe that says you have to play leading tones everywhere . The great players can ' skate over ' changes or dig right into them at will .
    Which of course is the same thing as

    F6 Fm7 Cmaj7

    anyone can learn to play this way. it’s one of basic techniques in jazz changes playing; getting mileage from stuff you already know.

    it’s more like expressing a chord sequence that isn’t the one you are playing over.

    I think it’s a bit of a problem that some analyses seem to focus on analysing every line from the root of the accompanying chord rather than seeing the line it’s own thing harmonically and then seeing how it relates to the underlying progression.

    Its always better to start by imagining the underlying progression doesn’t exist, examining the line on its own terms, and only then looking at the underlying changes.

    This way you start to see different ways to apply the same material.

    Learning guys often play IV IVm I over ii V I was one of the first hints I got of this. Functionally of course it’s the same thing: Subdomiant —> voiceleading —> Tonic

    And if use Fmaj7 Fm7 Em7 say, I’m going to find some nice and idiomatic chromatic voiceleading that could be analysed as various upper extensions on a C major ii V I

    (Now the fun one is where you use #ivo7 instead of IVm or bVII7.)

    So I don’t use the term ‘chord sub’ here because that implies some harmonic relationship between the chords. In fact only some of the chords need to be related to the underlying harmony, but that’s another thread. Steve Coleman’s term ‘invisible paths’ is a nice one. We are just finding route from A to B.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-11-2020 at 05:42 AM.

  15. #64

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    Because CST provides access to voice leading tones, it gives the false impression that the improviser is required to make use of that voice leading, as mandatory.

    When I first read about CST, you know, these modes of the major and melodic minor scales, etc., I thought it was odd that, in minor, the major third of V needed including "by all means" given that, in the blues for example, it was perfectly fine to use the blues scale throughout, despite it having neither the major third of I not that of V.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Because CST provides access to voice leading tones, it gives the false impression that the improviser is required to make use of that voice leading, as mandatory.

    When I first read about CST, you know, these modes of the major and melodic minor scales, etc., I thought it was odd that, in minor, the major third of V needed including "by all means" given that, in the blues for example, it was perfectly fine to use the blues scale throughout, despite it having neither the major third of I not that of V.
    Yes, I had the same misapprehension for years. Plenty of students have the same hang ups.

    I think this is why it is important to find teachers who can actually play the music you want to play?

    There are a lot of teachers out there teaching 'jazz' out of the theory books. What you need is the actual music, and the real 'street' knowledge, even if you choose to go with CST as a working model of harmony.

    The problem is always when things that have some truth to them, like 'the chord and scale are two sides of the same coin' become interpreted in a literal way and become articles of faith.

    Teaching people simple and effective ways to get through a II-V-I should take precedence over theoretically 'correct' ones. But at least you always have the music itself to teach you these moves.

  17. #66

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    I just found another random example of this as this morning I'm practicing The Chicken by Jaco Pastorius. Plain Bb minor pentatonic over F7 (resolving to Bb major).

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think this is why it is important to find teachers who can actually play the music you want to play?

    There are a lot of teachers out there teaching 'jazz' out of the theory books. What you need is the actual music, and the real 'street' knowledge, even if you choose to go with CST as a working model of harmony.
    I always recommend people who are looking for a teacher to look for them in live music venues... choose people who play something you enjoyed listening to... you may find some are better teachers than others (and some may not teach at all), but I think you have better chances in a local venue than in a local music school.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Teaching people simple and effective ways to get through a II-V-I should take precedence over theoretically 'correct' ones. But at least you always have the music itself to teach you these moves.
    Yes to making teaching "real". Also follow any theory explanation by a short practice session to show the way what's been explained can be practiced and can be used in performance, and sounds like.

    And yes, we are really lucky that those performances were captured in recordings.

  19. #68

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    This morning I've been playing over a minor V-I vamp. I liked the way V mixolydian resolves to the root and the minor third of I. And I like the way bVII mixolydian resolves to the minor third and the fifth of I. The two combined seem to work better than any of my previous approaches. I'm really delighted.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I think of it as the Home on The Range Changes (A popular American Folk Song)... but with an added backdoor

    Oh (C) give me a (C7) home where the (F) buffalo (Fm) roam and the (C) skies are not (D7) cloudy all (G7) day.

    Oh (C) give me a (C7) home where the (F) buffalo (Fm) roam (Bb9) and the (C) skies are not (D7) cloudy all (G7) day.

    C to C7 to F to Fm to Bb7 = I to V/IV to IV to iv to bVII7 to I. (V/IV is spoken as "five of four")
    No quarrel with the changes but the lyric goes like this:
    O, give me home where the buffalo roam
    And the deer and the antelope play
    Where seldom is heard a discouraging word
    And the skies are not cloudy all day.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    What you're doing in the first two categories looks to me like dominant to tonic resolutions that don't feature the (alleged*) most defining characteristic of dominant to tonic movement, namely the voice leading of the leading tone to the root of the tonice chord. Your altered category is the only that has this leading.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant? TBH I don't seperate out the two functions. A lot of jazzers don't.
    I was thinking these two quotes highlight the very same thing. To me, the one difference between subdominant (or pre-dominant as I like to call them) and the dominant that follows is that the former doesn't have the leading and the dominant does.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    This morning I've been playing over a minor V-I vamp. I liked the way V mixolydian resolves to the root and the minor third of I. And I like the way bVII mixolydian resolves to the minor third and the fifth of I. The two combined seem to work better than any of my previous approaches. I'm really delighted.
    And in the evening I used the very same two mixolydian scales over a major V-I in the relative major key to previous. In terms of the major key that's V mixolydian and III mixolydian I used the later to resolve to the sixth of the destination I. That sounded remarkably beautiful to me. All this is something.

    Whereabouts are you based, Christian? I plan to go to UK when the pandemic is over, and see friends in Portsmouth, Birmingham, probably London too.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    And in the evening I used the very same two mixolydian scales over a major V-I in the relative major key to previous. In terms of the major key that's V mixolydian and III mixolydian I used the later to resolve to the sixth of the destination I. That sounded remarkably beautiful to me. All this is something.

    Whereabouts are you based, Christian? I plan to go to UK when the pandemic is over, and see friends in Portsmouth, Birmingham, probably London too.
    I’m based in South East London

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant? TBH I don't seperate out the two functions. A lot of jazzers don't.
    So, if you don't separate the two functions, how do you treat a two-chord cadence like this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Bye Bye Blackbird bridge (I7 chord as the tonal centre is IIm):
    I7 | % | % | VI7 |
    IIm |
    I see a minor II-V where the II, a subdominant, has relevance in itself, as it lasts a lot.

  25. #74

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    I tend to see the IIm as a temporary key change using a (II) V I. At some point it becomes a subdominant and moves back to I.

  26. #75

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    Your response is totally relevant to the second half of the bridge (and to the "A" of the tune).

    However, I refer to the first half of the bridge. The beginning of the bridge is a minor II-V to IIm, and the chord I'm talking about is a I7 (in place of the IIIm7b5 in a vanilla minor II-V).

    I'm fine with considering that I7 an entity by itself (in line with your answer that IIm is "a centre that eventually turns into the IIm7 subdominant"). The fact that it's a 7 chord doesn't bug me, the same way that II7, VI7 and III7 often work as entities using a whole 2-measure chunk.

    That way, the bridge would be: two measures of I7, followed by a "minor II-V to IIm" (which happen to feature the very same I7 chord) using another two measures, resolving to IIm.

    Does that make sense?

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Your response is totally relevant to the second half of the bridge (and to the "A" of the tune).

    However, I refer to the first half of the bridge. The beginning of the bridge is a minor II-V to IIm, and the chord I'm talking about is a I7 (in place of the IIIm7b5 in a vanilla minor II-V).

    I'm fine with considering that I7 an entity by itself (in line with your answer that IIm is "a centre that eventually turns into the IIm7 subdominant"). The fact that it's a 7 chord doesn't bug me, the same way that II7, VI7 and III7 often work as entities using a whole 2-measure chunk.

    That way, the bridge would be: two measures of I7, followed by a "minor II-V to IIm" (which happen to feature the very same I7 chord) using another two measures, resolving to IIm.

    Does that make sense?
    I don't think I understand the question.

    How would I categorise I7? Similar to VI7. A moving chord that goes to Gm/Bb.

    In fact as you say I7= iii7b5 so, we have a long minor II-V into Gm if you like, which is neat, hadn't thought of that.

    F7 | % | % | D7b9 | Gm |

    becomes
    Am7b5 | % | % | D7b9 | Gm

    In any case no-one likes playing on m7b5 chord apart from dweebs, so most of our time in bebop land is spent playing F7. We might tangentially bother with D7 if we want to in some way, and end up in Gm/Bb land over the relevant chord. So we get:

    F7 | % | % | % | (gubbins) --> | Gm |
    (As Am7b5 = F7)

    Or if you prefer

    F7 --> Bb

    So the whole thing is a backdoor to Gm or a V-I into Bb. This approach relies on you having lots of interesting things to play on F7, which shouldn't be a problem for a bop head. You can also use Cm ideas, because Cm6 = Am7b5.

    Cm | % | % | (gubbins)--> | Gm

    Which again, you know blends the traditional subdominant and dominant worlds (that is to say II V, choose one or both.)

    Alternatively we can add more movement by walking down from F7 to D7 trad style:

    F7 E7 Eb7 D7
    Or bop style

    Cm F7 | Bm E7 | Bbm7 D7 | Am7 D7 |

    Which is a common move IIRC.

    Does that answer your question?

  28. #77

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    BTW, all of this harmony apart from the walk down chords belongs to the Gm key (and the three scales we use traditionally, natural, harmonic and melodic)

    The reason I wouldn't recommend simply playing Gm is because the emphasis is important. Playing on Cm6 and F7 (or if you really must Am7b5) will give you a better emphasis for expressing moving harmony. If you simply play Gm, you run the risk of sounding like you are just sitting on that chord.

    For example, if I play F7, I'll emphasise F A C Eb, which (especially Eb) are the less 'settled' notes of Gm. OTOH if I play Cm6/Am7b5 I'll emphasise A C Eb G, which G obviously aside, have a more 'restless' quality than the Gm triad chord tones.

    BTW, you could also use Cm7, or Ebmaj7(#11)

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Does that answer your question?
    Absolutely yes, thanks so much for this. Your post has the answer to my question plus a lot of additional food for thought.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    I associate that sound with Chicago bluesman, Magic Sam - blues progressions where the I is minor and the IV and V are both major. Charles Brown's "Black Night" is another tune based on those moves:

    "All Your Love":



    "Black Night":

    I love Magic Sam and that sound influenced me greatly. Though I tend to drop the IV altogether except for the turnaround. (8 measures of i plus a turnaround)