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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I need to learn more about Schenker the man to proceed with these thoughts; how did his thoughts and ideas (and prejudices) evolve over time? What were his feelings after the war? The more I read and think, the more I feel like I'm being sold a line by Ewell and I don't like it.Last edited by christianm77; 09-10-2020 at 07:25 PM.
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09-10-2020 06:37 PM
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One more source reference, Phillip Ewell speaking at a Society For Music Theory event referencing Heinrich Schenker in more detail.I have it cued up in the video. It runs a little more than 20 minutes.
I don't know the best answers but I feel it to be important for questions to be raised even when uncomfortable. I appreciate Phillip Ewell for having the courage to represent. Unlike Adam Neely who derives a portion of his livelihood based on subscribers and view counts, I don't think Phillip ever imagined the level of reaction both positive and negative in response to his writing and talks within the rather insular world of music theory academia.
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Originally Posted by bako
It’s more that everything is being mobilised into a left/right culture war, so suddenly music theory is news. The right has been talking about ‘cultural Marxism’ for some time. This fits in with that narrative for them.
I have the feeling Schenker’s story is more complex, and I’m interested in finding out more. There are a lot complex questions that go beyond simply condemning one person. I’m interested to see how Ewell adresses this.
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Thanks for this; I think Ewell’s line of argument hasn’t been unusual in academia for some time. You have Susan McClary for instance.
I saw this lecture streamed when 1st given. At the time a simple search on
google of Schenker and racism yielded many quoted passages from his extensive writings. At the moment this has disappeared, buried under the
mass of ongoing response to these talks and blog.
I have the feeling Schenker’s story is more complex, and I’m interested in finding out more. There are a lot complex questions that go beyond simply condemning one person. I’m interested to see how Ewell adresses this.
I did one semester at a school whose theory department was Schenkarian driven. I remember the placement person at the school as being very dismissive of my previous school because that theory dept. was in the hands of composers. My teacher was a very closed minded person. Schenker was never mentioned in his class. One day, Carl Schacter (who co-wrote a textbook on the subject in common use) subbed for my teacher. I found him far more approachable. For a day, theory was once again perspectives that could be discussed, not a set of facts to swallow whole.
I did manage to find this which likely has far more than you will ever want to know but I found it very hard to navigate and quickly gave up.
Schenker Documents Online: Der Abend
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Yea bako... I remember. Most of these types of awareness are slow to come. I've always used terms like vanilla and embellishment for cover. And grew up living in what we call the subdominant area of function. Some of my earlier compositions... would use improve, well sections of precomposed bars of notated music for all musicians that had different possible results. Which were really my door for letting those subdominant harmonies develop without having functional control. The result of 20th century compositional developments...you could either go experimental which opened doors without getting in the face of tradition.... Ives, Ruggles, Cowell, Seeger or go in your face approach, more in the avant-garde style with a purpose, Cage. I guess that's why I've always made sure I could cover when performing... anyway, I usually don't get involved verbally. (probably should)
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Originally Posted by bako
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
It isn’t irrelevant to his theory obviously. I think we need to examine his ideas, and determine whether they support his German supremacist project.
My main line of attack against Schenker would be - what is the point of him? (see above.)
I don’t see the point of retroactively analysing music in a way where you essentially justify conclusion you already had. That is scientism at best, even without white supremacy. And I think I could compellingly argue against his ideas having much value to music education based on that.
I mean Kant did that back in the 18th century and nobody took any bloody notice because they all had a vested interest in it probably... nationalism?
“The Germans are the only people who currently make use of the word ‘aesthetic’ to signify what others call the critique of taste. This usage originated in the abortive attempt made by Baumgarten . . . to bring the critical treatment of the beautiful under rational principles, and so to raise its rules to the rank of a science. But such endeavors are fruitless.” (The Critique of Pure Reason.)Last edited by christianm77; 09-11-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
As to Schenker exactly, who made him an expert. It’s almost as if some American preferred a German musical theorist, and decided to make him the reference of what should be taught. When was Schenker elevated to such notoriety that he’s being taught in schools, and why? But let’s face it, folks today aren’t standing for it because of what’s in his notes, which survived him. Heck, there could have been American theorists elevated who likely share Schenker’s fate. You see, when you begin going down this rabbit hole and investigating these people everyone who lived during white superiority times ends up with the same evil dirt on them.
Schenker didn’t even succeed to being a prominent theorist in Germany during his lifetime. So why is this Supremacist elevated to such notoriety in America? I don’t get it.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
(And send everyone to study with Nadia Boulanger lol.... that’s not a bad thing I think; she had a LOT of students, but to go from Copland, to Piazzolla, to Glass, to Quincy Jones? Wow. But Nadia was kind of a massive racist and Piazolla supported the Argentinian junta apparently, so hey ho.)
How well does Copland come off in a Schenkerian analysis? Do the numbers add up or is ‘computer says no’?
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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Well done to Ewell for making anyone give a shit about this incredibly dry corner of music, I guess?
As I say this sort of critique of Dead White Guys has been de rigeur since the 70s. In the meantime music education has changed a lot.
The only reason it has wings now is because of the current political atmosphere. Although BLM is a part of that, too, it seems tangential to that struggle. I don’t want to sound like I’m downplaying the importance of thinking about these issues in music education, but by and large Ewell’s writing should mostly be of interest to music educators.
I have to say it sounds like the right (Fox News) seized on this as a new front in the Culture Wars. I think Neely might be a bit of a unwitting conduit in that as he has such a large platform. Facebook has been blowin up....Last edited by christianm77; 09-11-2020 at 03:09 PM.
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I have a minor in music theory from UNT, which I got back in the early 90s, never took Schenkerian analysis, but it was always taught, when brought up in other theory or comp classes, that it applied only to common practice classical music and was sort of engineered to demonstrate the superiority of German music. These were not controversial opinions as far as I remember. Don't know if there is some sub sect of Schenkerian supremacists who make grander claims than this or if Phillip Ewell saw an opportunity to advance his career by attacking an easy target and getting a bonus from the lame responses by Jackson and others who circled the wagons when they saw their fiefdom under attack. Have always found it better to think of academics all as cynical careerists rather than people motivated by some higher search for truth
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Well, is German music superior do you think? Perhaps this is an idea that should be challenged? Just because it’s not controversial doesn’t mean it’s true; it was once uncontroversial that the Earth was the centre of the universe and diseases were caused by bad smells.
I say only because I think Russian music is clearly better which I shall demonstrate through my Aesthetic Theory of Badassery.
Schubert is not badass. -20.
Beethoven is badass but not as badass as Tchaikovsky. -5Last edited by christianm77; 09-11-2020 at 03:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
German music is the most important and influential with European Classical Music, the analogy would be NYC's position in the development of Jazz. Austria in Mozart and Beethoven's day was the cultural capital of the continent and it had the most patrons and attracted the best talent (and don't forget most of Italy was Austrian at the time as well). France had a great baroque tradition but got derailed by the Revolution and for whatever reason England had very little in the late 18th & 19th centuries. In a time where information did not travel easily, geographic advantages were hard to surmount.
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Originally Posted by bako
It’s clear that both Joe Feagan and Ewell have each done their homework. When you’ve exact quotes of Schenker’s views towards blacks being unable to govern themselves, dismissing black spirituals as a ripoff of Euro theory, and saying very racist things about jazz music an entire picture of Schenker is formed. You can’t separate his theories from his biology. In fact the two are inseparable, which is the point Ewell is making. I don’t see any problem with what Ewell is pointing out. In fact we should be thankful he’s pointing these facts about Schenker out to us. It’s 2020! If it’s not a time for true diversity, then when?
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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It’s interesting that both the Russians and the Germans each have strong composers. Picking one over the other is being too subjective. One should simply appreciate both for the beauty they present. This my bike is better than your bike nonsense is kids stuff. We’re grownups after all. So why must we act like children with these comparisons?
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Originally Posted by BWV
German music is the most important and influential with European Classical Music, the analogy would be NYC's position in the development of Jazz. Austria in Mozart and Beethoven's day was the cultural capital of the continent and it had the most patrons and attracted the best talent (and don't forget most of Italy was Austrian at the time as well). France had a great baroque tradition but got derailed by the Revolution and for whatever reason England had very little in the late 18th & 19th centuries. In a time where information did not travel easily, geographic advantages were hard to surmount.
But some people actually think Schumann is better than Monteverdi. These people are not of interest to me.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I don't care about Schenker. Schenker is DEAD.
What I care about is whether his ideas on music actually uphold white supremacy. I'm open to the idea that they are. Although, to be honest I care less about that then the fact that they are almost certainly stupid to start off with, for the reasons explained above not because racism isn't important, but because if you don't focus on this stuff you end up replacing stupidness with more stupidness.
What Thomas Regleski calls methodolatory, which is EVERYWHERE in music education.
I didn't see the video; I'll watch it if I have a moment.
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And then there is the tendency to mistake fortunate happenstance of history and geography for some sort of innate superiority, which brings us back to Schenker
But I would rather listen to Schumann than Monteverdi
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
A bit of background - as Music Edu student, we spend a lot of time discussing assumptions of Classical Music superiority, the problems of ensuring social justice and diversity in music education and so on. This stuff is very much in the zeitgeist of mainstream music education. For instance post BLM the music service put out a memo saying we should all feature more black composers (might want to have a word with the exam boards maybe, possibly?)
The problem for me personally is that I'm not a classical music educator, so while watching classic music education undergo long overdue spasms of self reflection is heartening on some level, it is also quite boring. These things rapidly become apparent.
- classical musicians will only accept feedback or criticism on their practices from within their own tribe.
- few of them seem to have any idea of what goes on outside of classical music and cheerfully stereotype other cultures
- at the same time they are always BANGING on about and never shut up.
Other than that, it's all good. I'm just in my own little corner, trying to decide whether modern jazz education's problems are cultural or systemic. No-one bothers me.
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It’s important to watch the video because Ewell has many of the quotes from Schenker which displays his racism. This is why people are worked up about Schenker. Ewell presents his case like a well horned country lawyer who slices and dices his opponent. I don’t see how one can separate him from his comments for they’re too inflammatory towards non whites. It’s pretty sickening stuff.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
RIP Nick Gravenites
Today, 05:48 PM in The Players