The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

[rintincop]

Christian, somebody else is playing my piano at the moment and I can't hear clearly. At what time does Charlie play Db-6 over Eb7 ? (It would result in an Eb7sus4 b9 chord harmony). I want to check out your citations. You also mentioned Louis, but he doesn't play chords, and Levine is talking about harmony, not melodic lines. So you lost me again. Please post videos of these examples you use.

[christianm77]

Christian, somebody else is playing my piano at the moment and I can't hear clearly. At what time does Charlie play Db-6 over Eb7 ? (It would result in an Eb7sus4 b9 chord harmony)

Bar 2. Sorry about the enharmony

CC plays C Bb Ab Fb Db on Eb7 (so it’s even Dbm(maj7))

the IVm6 in V7 is really common in 30’s stuff. Great sound!

Also Parker uses it loads.

BTW Warne Marsh characterised this as Dominant II - melodic minor built on the b7 of the dominant. Dominant I is like Lydian Dom, Dominant III more like altered, but it’s a little more complex. Read ‘a jazz life’ if that interests. Tristano school were massively into Charlie C. And prez.

I think Tristano school might be first to introduce MM as a teaching tool late 40s (!) according to Peter Ind’s account.

[rintincop]

Some guidelines.

[christianm77]

Look: The only thing I’d like and could reasonably expect you to take away from this is that while you might never agree with me, I have my reasons to say what I say, and I do attempt to substantiate my argument.

It’s not bullshitting. It’s a reasonably educated opinion.

that has value to me. It has value to me when I see it in others.

I don’t ever expect to convince Jonah of a damn thing, but my god I respect the man.

[rpjazzguitar]

Bar 2. Sorry about the enharmony

CC plays C Bb Ab Fb Db on Eb7 (so it’s even Dbm(maj7))

the IVm6 in V7 is really common in 30’s stuff. Great sound!

Also Parker uses it loads.

BTW Warne Marsh characterised this as Dominant II - melodic minor built on the b7 of the dominant. Dominant I is like Lydian Dom, Dominant III more like altered, but it’s a little more complex. Read ‘a jazz life’ if that interests. Tristano school were massively into Charlie C. And prez.

I think Tristano school might be first to introduce MM as a teaching tool late 40s (!) according to Peter Ind’s account.

I make no claim to CC scholarship, but one of the main characteristic sounds I hear is a descending minor triad 5 b3 R against the 7th chord a step higher. So, G Eb C (third fret) against D7. I hear it in Lester Young too, which may contribute to the conventional thinking that CC was influenced by Lester. It's striking and not used that way any more (at least, I never hear it) so it sounds like that era.

[rintincop]

Levine is talking about chords. Playing a line of

C Bb Ab E Db over an Eb7 is not the same as playing a Eb7sus chord let alone an Eb7sus b9 chord. Charlie Christian would not play an Eb7sus b9 voicing and that is what Levine is explaining.

Page 41, Figure 3-19
"Play C with your right hand while playing G7 with your left hand, as shown in 3-19. You'll hear the dissonance. Again, if you play C as a passing tone, you'll hardly notice any dissonance. You'll hear it only of you hold C against a G7 chord. You might specifically want to play something dissonant, or you might want to play the 11th and then resolve it down a half step to the 3rd, as in the example from "Stella By Starlight". Remember not to think of dissonance as bad. Dissonance is not a pejorative term; it's a musical device you can use when appropriate.
As with the "avoid" note on the I chord, most pre-bop jazz musicians played the 4th on a dominant 7th chord strictly as a passing note.".. (Levine is not even saying all prebop musicians. ) His point is they didn't like to comp "G7sus" chords on G7)
Christain, you seem to have misunderstood what Levine has written. In the process, you have created a straw man argument. You have stated that you are unwilling to accept evidence (what Levine actually published) when presented. This is not a discussion on your part.

[christianm77]

I make no claim to CC scholarship, but one of the main characteristic sounds I hear is a descending minor triad 5 b3 R against the 7th chord a step higher. So, G Eb C (third fret) against D7. I hear it in Lester Young too, which may contribute to the conventional thinking that CC was influenced by Lester. It's striking and not used that way any more (at least, I never hear it) so it sounds like that era.

Django does it too.

A good example of Parker doing it is the head melody of Moose the Mooche.

Also - I feel like the 'backdoor'/altered stuff like Bb Ab G F | E on G7 to Cmaj7 might have started this way. Those no fourth in this of course, so Levine for instance would probably say altered, and it could be that... But it could also be Fm or Bb7. Again, see Barry Harris...

The 'altered tetrachord' G Ab Bb B - could come from a number of source. But you could just say Fm + the third of G7. Or half whole. Or altered. Or maybe it doesn't matter...

[christianm77]

Levine is talking about chords. Playing a line of

C Bb Ab E Db over an Eb7 is not the same as playing a Eb7sus chord let alone an Eb7sus b9 chord. Charlie Christian would not play an Eb7sus b9 voicing and that is what Levine is explaining.

Page 41, Figure 3-19
"Play C with your right hand while playing G7 with your left hand, as shown in 3-19. You'll hear the dissonance. Again, if you play C as a passing tone, you'll hardly notice any dissonance. You'll hear it only of you hold C against a G7 chord. You might specifically want to play something dissonant, or you might want to play the 11th and then resolve it down a half step to the 3rd, as in the example from "Stella By Starlight". Remember not to think of dissonance as bad. Dissonance is not a pejorative term; it's a musical device you can use when appropriate.

I think you may have missed the first sentence of post #149. Stella is an example of this I have used a few times on the JGO forum; I didn't realise it was in the JTB.

As with the "avoid" note on the I chord, most pre-bop jazz musicians played the 4th on a dominant 7th chord strictly as a passing note.".. (Levine is not even saying all)
Christain, you seem to have misunderstood what Levine has written. In the process, you have created a straw man argument. You have stated that you are unwilling to accept evidence (what Levine actually published) when presented. This is not a discussion on your part.

As rpjazzguitar notes, it appears to be a common feature of 1930's players. Now obviously I haven't transcribed all of them so I don't know and Mark is not technically wrong. But, the solos I have chosen are some of the best known pre war solos among non specialists. So; eh.

This all gives the impression that I actually care about this more than I do... Apart from the very real nit picking aspect, I do actually think from a teaching point of view there's not much to be gained about talking about the 4th on dominant on lines being subject to some sort of semi prohibition. Just say: choose natural or # to taste.

Voicings maybe... Hmm, YMMV. I quite like 3rds on sus4 chords, and 4ths on dom7s are certainly not as dissonant as those on major sevenths. Also, of course, voicings are not lines.

But: isn't that the problem with CST 'two sides of the same coin' as Nettles and Graf put it? It's just unhelpful baggage when referencing older shit. And TBH, can be a bit of needless limitation in dealing with what's going on on records. He's happy to ignore that stuff when the music tells him to; like the stuff later on with the McCoy Tyner voicings. He's at his best when he stops trying to be a theorist or a historian.

TBH I think any attempt at theory within jazz is kind of a fruitless endeavour. We should aim to be collectors not physicists. JTB is a great collection of interesting and beautiful things, once you get past all the stuff that doesn't matter.

[christianm77]

Here's the Louis example, 1928 Basin Street blues. It's tempting to see Louis' lines in bars 5-6 as realisations of F#m7b5 and Fmaj7 harmonies particularly as he clearly outlines Cmaj7 and A9/A7 elsewhere, but I have no idea what the basis was. Probably just ears of a genius. Of course all the accompanists of the time were playing simple triads, dominants and so on.

The ear does tend to hear melodic stacks of thirds and larger intervals as harmonic (see Bach solo string music) so - Fmaj7/G7? Dunno. What do you think?

Louis was married to a pianist, so maybe there was some sort of harmonic concept.

I like that Mark gives Louis some props for his progressiveness.


The main difference you are going to see with say, Parker is the rhythmic aspect. It's almost a cliche in prewar jazz circles to say that.

Obviously Louis phrases a lot on the beat, compared to a bebop player.

TBH this looks like Barry Harris stuff to me lol

[Reg]

OK... it's not complicated.... The books been around for years....
Rintin... did you know and work with Paul VW. Lot of good memories, I've played some great gigs and festivals with Paul and Mark.... the VW bros. Still see Mark around, good friends with Tom P from tower... use to see them in airports etc... It's obvious everyone likes and thinks Mark's... the Jazz Theory book is cool, well except christian.... but he like to stir it up... I mean the book is really well organized, easy to understand and maybe back in the 60's and 70's might have been novel or original.... but by the time it came out was common practice, at least for most composing musicians. I studied with Ray Santisi and got hooked up through Alan Dawson for lessons with James Williams... back in 70's. Ray was old school... but because of berklee faculty ties and playing gigs in area... most of the theory material was already being played. Did Mark L. hang with the berklee gang back in the 70's, I know he worked with Herb, and was from NH... but some of the casual gigs were pretty hip, between faulty and some of the students.... the level of the music was pretty up there. You never knew who would show up.

Anyway

[rintincop]

Yes, I knew the VW brothers. Mark is retired now.

Here is my personal way of block chording on V7b9, it's different than Mark's and Barry's. It's my own device.

My scale has

1, b9 #9, 3, 4, 5, b13, b7
Mark has a variety of hip tweaks throughout his "Drop 2" Book (all about his various personal block chord systems). Some of his block chord schemes even have a single fourth voicing showing up briefly, very tasty.

[joelf]

Thought the piano book was good---some nice voicing ideas. (That was long ago---maybe I'd think different now).

I'm more of an ear than book person, but the older I get....I mean when I'm writing over my head, like I did with a wacky theater piece started back in '95, then it's time to find out WTF's going on. Books, teachers---whatever.

I was a jazzer using cell technique, and not even knowing it. Put it aside til I did know.

I think there are really 2 ways to go in learning theory: 1. the classical people---way ahead of jazzers----who 'borrowed' liberally, then it really did become something different and of jazz taken with jazz rhythm; feeling; African & Latin influences. 2.African harmony is as different as its polyrhythmic approach (which is---further difference---not meter-centered). I'm only just discovering it, and you'll never see it in most schools. No social rant here, just check it out---if you want to.

Books are written by people---who, you may have heard, are flawed. So we need a huge grain of sand, and the BS detector a certain John Birks Gillespie alluded to (in his own book---the autobiog To Be or Not to Bop). For one example: I was advised many years ago, studying with Bill Finegan, to read Alec Wilder's American Popular Song. (I already had it). It's seminal in many ways, but his elitism (stopping at 1950---when the folks he sniffingly called 'amateurs' 'took over') devalues an otherwise important work. (He also---incredibly---mentions Billy Strayhorn in drive-by fashion as 'Ellington's chief arranger'---and doesn't deign to analyze or even name-check a single Strayhorn song.

Am I gonna toss the book in the trash? Hell, no ! I assign it to students and regularly reread parts. (I'm slowly working on my own book to include the important pop writers, and attempt re-define 'American Music' as musics played or sung here---in this nation of immigrants).

As a wag told me: 'You got lemons, make lemonade'. Or the way I put it: 'Leave the door open---but keep a broom right next to it'...

[rintincop]

Here is Mark's major scale block chord tweak. From The Drop 2 Workshop Book, by Mark Levine, 2006. A follow on to the Chapter in "The Jazz Piano Book (1989)" titled Block Chords

[rintincop]

Here's another good tweak, thanks Mark. You may ask me if you wonder what he was thinking when he devised this set.

[rintincop]

When I hear this device I know it's Mark Levine playing piano. It is his signature movement: (appeared first in The Jazz Piano Book and then later in the Drop 2 Workshop Book)

[rintincop]

This is by me, block chords for the blues scale:

[grahambop]

By the way, Randy Vincent’s ‘Drop 2’ book has quite a lot of those ‘tweaked’ block chord voicings, adapted for guitar. His book is based on Levine’s piano book, apparently Mark Levine suggested the idea of a guitar version to Chuck Sher, who asked Randy Vincent to do it.

[christianm77]

'Stir it up'? Maybe - my dad did call me 'iconoclastic' the other day, and I don't hate that label.

But I often find myself deleting or rewriting posts that I think a bit too provocatively worded because my main aim is not to provoke heated argument. This being the internet, the heat finds me anyway.

(Maybe I should just go for it and get myself banned. Probably get more work done.)

How dare I suggest a book that's been in circulation for 25 years could benefit from some changes, revisions or editing and has some issues with regard to its common application within music edu lol.

[Vladan]

... Theodor Adorno's writings on jazz ...

Great read, this one from 1936, he could see right through it, even if he wrote based on shadow of a shadow ... it all translates well to any modern/ hip music, or other artistic commodity, of any era, in both "elitist" and "for masses" incarnations:

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...no-on-jazz.pdf

[Reg]

Yea Rintin... I was taught adding the #9 to Harmonic min V chord back in the 70's playing gigs... get rid of the gap, sometimes they would use the dim/whole tone analogy etc... but most just added the #9 and used as Blue Note reference.

It's like that old school transition to more modern jazz harmony, right. you can do the same thing with the SubV.
How to cover both harmonic and Melodic minor. Personally when the Dim. gets involves... it get too muddy.

Kind of like your Blue Note Block voicings... a little thick maybe, and that Dim sound gets muddy... I guess that's just a personal thing. But cool, thanks for posting. Great for solo work. Do you have any examples of usage... in your playing or composing etc... Do you even play guitar.... what are you doing on the site.

LOL just having fun....

[christianm77]

"No fun will be had at this or any other time" Adorno in his critique of fun

[pcjazz]

Great read, this one from 1936, he could see right through it, even if he wrote based on shadow of a shadow ... it all translates well to any modern/ hip music, or other artistic commodity, of any era, in both "elitist" and "for masses" incarnations:

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...no-on-jazz.pdf

But does he have any clips?

[grahambop]

Great read, this one from 1936, he could see right through it, even if he wrote based on shadow of a shadow ... it all translates well to any modern/ hip music, or other artistic commodity, of any era, in both "elitist" and "for masses" incarnations:

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...no-on-jazz.pdf

Adorno was the first person to realise the importance of dairy products and fruit in jazz:

[christianm77]

I would question the use of the word 'us' in that extract :-)

[PMB]

I would question the use of the word 'us' in that extract :-)

...and surely the word 'bananas' was a Freudian slip.