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  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Carl Barry, with whom I studied many years ago, was very organized in his approach. He taught specific things that I still use.
    Wow! Carl was my teacher when I was 17! glad someone would even mention him. He's a great guy and fine player---has been for years. He and Joanne are some of my favorite people. Real troopers---and 'salt of the earth'.

    (Carl was the reason I ended up studying with Chuck Wayne---a whole other topic not germane here. He was always talking about Chuck, b/c he became a sort of acolyte---as did many of his generation. Chuck was very charismatic and persuasive)...

    So thanks for the mention, and I'm glad he helped you. Helped me, too...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    I have been fortunate in studying Barry’s method from Howard Rees, who essentially apprenticed with him for several years, as well as by attending Barry’s own workshops when he visited Toronto fairly regularly (and now his Zoom webinars). I would have found it difficult to learn the approach from the occasional workshops given that Barry does not follow a systematic curriculum but rather divides his teaching time between introducing the basics (extra-note rules, 6-diminished scales) and demonstrating and explaining whatever interests him particularly at the time, often at an advanced level. That said, I always came away from a workshop with months’ worth of sounds and ideas to explore, even when a lot of it went right over my head.

    Howard did a great job in structuring Barry’s instruction in the workshop videos. They would be a good place to start for someone who is unable to take group lessons with him. Alan Kingstone’s book is also recommended for showing how to put Barry’s harmonic approach onto the guitar.

    Barry is a great teacher in the same way that Lenny Breau was — he can show you amazing things to do on your instrument and offers an approach to the music based on a lifetime’s experience and (at least in Barry’s case) reflection. But if you need a structured progressive syllabus it may be better to look elsewhere first.
    Hey this makes a lot of sense! Good word, man. I will say that there is a ton of info in the workshop videos I've seen of his. Just not my style of learning. Definitely one of the best players of all time though.

  4. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    In my experience there are at least two kinds of great teachers. I refer to them as Jungle teachers and Zoo teachers. The Jungle teacher has no evident system or organized approach, but simply to sit with them and process content is to learn an enormous amount. They introduce you to the content as it appears in the wild, and teach you to navigate particular points in it, to stay alive, and even enjoy your trek through an otherwise daunting territory. I had a professor like that at Yale. We referred to his "Famous Fifty" which was basically about 50 little packages of content that tended to drift in and out of his classes, no matter what the course. We always said yo need to take this guy's classes until you realized you had the "Fifty" and then you were ready to move on. His classes were not very well organized, but simply immersions into a body of content, like parachuting into the jungle.

    "Zoo" teachers present an orderly arrangement of the material, elements classified and sequenced. Much easier to absorb, though any systematization of content tends to break connections that reach across categories. Zoo teachers have the models, the principles, the organization. They also might be just fine in the jungle, but then again, maybe not. Organization occurs by disconnecting content elements from their organic contexts of multiple interconnections and putting them into a hierarchy of limited connections. So some things get displaced.

    Anyhow, from outside the whole Barry Harris world, he sounds more like a Jungle teacher, and it sounds like he also trained some who became outstanding Zoo teachers.
    This is my favorite reply to this thread thus far. Thank you for sharing this man and it gave me such a new understanding of learning. I can't even tell you how much this just helped me. I know that sounds weird but this comment really just put together some pieces in my head and gave me some new ideas on learning new stuff. Thank you so much.

  5. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    Barry is not a bad teacher. He has his 'ways', sure. A lot of his students are lame, untalented, or looking for Daddy. Is that his fault---any more than the long, boring solos by players who think they're 'keeping the flame' of Trane and Sonny those guys' faults?

    It's on the student to listen attentively and apply selectively. Monk was a teacher by example. Didn't say much, but played for and with the young talent that flocked to him. They learned...
    Okay, "bad teacher" was the wrong phrase. I'd say he's definitely a different teacher than I've come across. I guess I'm more used to organized learning systems. Those work best for me. But also introducing "connected" topics with it that are more advanced really helps for me too. But I will definitely say from what I've seen on those workshop videos, his students were all over the place much of the time. Things became more confusing when his students would ask weird questions and then he'd have to say "no, no. now wait a minute..." lolol. Priceless.

  6. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    Wow! Carl was my teacher when I was 17! glad someone would even mention him. He's a great guy and fine player---has been for years. He and Joanne are some of my favorite people. Real troopers---and 'salt of the earth'.

    (Carl was the reason I ended up studying with Chuck Wayne---a whole other topic not germane here. He was always talking about Chuck, b/c he became a sort of acolyte---as did many of his generation. Chuck was very charismatic and persuasive)...

    So thanks for the mention, and I'm glad he helped you. Helped me, too...
    I attended a weekend jazz workshop in Louisville Ky. that was taught by Chuck Wayne and Gene Bertoncini (if I recall correctly). It was wonderful. These two interacted and complemented each other. I didn't know enough at the time to realize just how lucky I was to be there.

  7. #256

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    Yea getting back to comping... Block chord patterns suck....and are even worse on guitar.... then throw in the vanilla mud sound of diminished .... Now were in the solo sleep world.

    I'm old... we all learned the same BS. Some different names and labels... but Guitar is a very different instrument.
    (might be why Randy V. never took up Chucks suggestion to make a guitar version of Mark's jazz book, not to mention... Randy's not really known for being in the pocket, love his playing... but comping?.
    If you want more personal versions and expansions of BH... go east to Berkman's harmony book, his jazz musicians guide is great, he can also play.... Or how about back in the 80's here in Calif. down at MI in Hollywood with Billy Childs.... use to love covering his tunes.... this was over 30 years ago. I meet him through mutual friends... but if you took the best of Herbie and Chick.... you would have Billy. There are many approaches to playing.


  8. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    If you want more personal versions and expansions of BH... go east to Berkman's harmony book, his jazz musicians guide is great, he can also play....
    Agreed. Berkman's "Jazz Harmony Book" has some nice narratives covering BH's perspective (aimed at piano players, but universal theory). See pp. 90-99 in particular.

  9. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I assumed rintincop’s examples are piano chords, not guitar.
    Of course I didn't read it in the context of his previous mention of Levine's piano book. Silly me. I'll give them a go from a drop 2 approach.

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel View Post
    This is my favorite reply to this thread thus far. Thank you for sharing this man and it gave me such a new understanding of learning. I can't even tell you how much this just helped me. I know that sounds weird but this comment really just put together some pieces in my head and gave me some new ideas on learning new stuff. Thank you so much.
    Well thank you for that. I would add that "Jungle" teachers prefer the inductive method: like "hard immersion" in language studies. "Zoo" teachers prefer the deductive method--traditional grammar and vocabulary drilling in language learning. Of course, we need both to be competent.

    I tend to be a jungle guy, but then I get scared and run to the zoo.

  11. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    ...I tend to be a jungle guy, but then I get scared and run to the zoo.
    I feel this one on a spiritual level

  12. #261

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    I like Berkman. The stuff that needs to be in there is in there.

  13. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Well thank you for that. I would add that "Jungle" teachers prefer the inductive method: like "hard immersion" in language studies. "Zoo" teachers prefer the deductive method--traditional grammar and vocabulary drilling in language learning. Of course, we need both to be competent.

    I tend to be a jungle guy, but then I get scared and run to the zoo.
    i think a bit of zoo can help, but I do think the jungle has to be the primary driver of learning.

    otherwise you get this thing where people feel they have to learn all the theory before they attempt to play with other people, and end up never doing it.

    but I’ve always been quite a hands-on oriented learner, probably to a fault