Are m7b5 and half-diminished 7th chords different?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Watch this and tell me what you think.

[ragman1]

Are m7b5 and half-diminished 7th chords different?


No. A rose by any other name :-)

What you can't do is simply substitute a m7b5/half-dim for a dom9. If someone notates a rootless dom9 as a m7b5/half-dim they've got the wrong name. That's a different issue.

We very rarely, if ever, resolve a m7b5/half-dim to a I, major or minor. It's not a substitute for a dominant.

[wolflen]

Are m7b5 and half-diminished 7th chords different?


No. A rose by any other name :-)

What you can't do is simply substitute a m7b5/half-dim for a dom9. If someone notates a rootless dom9 as a m7b5/half-dim they've got the wrong name. That's a different issue.

We very rarely, if ever, resolve a m7b5/half-dim to a I, major or minor. It's not a substitute for a dominant.

yeah..here is where theory makes many people go nuts...

trying to explain multi chord names./ functions to new players (and some seasoned ones too !!) is not an easy task..

C maj scale..the 7th chord (vii7b5) in the four note harmonized scale is named a Bmi7b5..(and some call it a half-dim) it DOES resolve to a CMA7 acting as a vii7b5...

now if you use it in a blues function-as a V9-- it becomes a G9 (no root chord)...and will also resolve to CMA7 or C7 dom function chords....depending on contest of course..melodic/harmonic concerns may require a different approach I realize...but in general this is the chords behaviour..

[rpjazzguitar]

yeah..here is where theory makes many people go nuts...

trying to explain multi chord names./ functions to new players (and some seasoned ones too !!) is not an easy task..

C maj scale..the 7th chord (vii7b5) in the four note harmonized scale is named a Bmi7b5..(and some call it a half-dim) it DOES resolve to a CMA7 acting as a vii7b5...

now if you use it in a blues function-as a V9-- it becomes a G9 (no root chord)...and will also resolve to CMA7 or C7 dom function chords....depending on contest of course..melodic/harmonic concerns may require a different approach I realize...but in general this is the chords behaviour..

Dhalfdim to Eb ... off the top of my head I can't think of a tune that does that.

[christianm77]

The names of many things in music theory are stupid, and unhelpful.

And chord symbols are an ad hoc, frequently illogical system that people take way too seriously.

[John A.]

Watch this and tell me what you think.

I think if you play a DFAC-> EbGBbD progression on the guitar while the bassist plays Bb-> Eb you're playing Bb9->EbMaj7, not DØ->EbMaj7 . I guess you could compose piece of music where the overall harmonic situation makes it clear that the root of the first chord truly is D, but that's not commonly the case. This guy seems to me making a basic mistake of thinking the notes played by a harmony instrument in a piece where functional harmony is at work constitute _the_ chord of the moment. That's not "controversial" as he puts it. It's just wrong. The chord that's written on a lead sheet is an indicator of the overall harmony, not the chord a particular instrument is supposed to play.

John

[rintincop]

Theory is good. Shall we also condem 1/2 = 5/10 = .5 = 50% as being too confusing? It is only confusing only to the untrained.

[A. Kingstone]

Minor, with the sixth in the bass.

- Monk

[wolflen]

Theory is good. Shall we also condem 1/2 = 5/10 = .5 = 50% as being too confusing? It is only confusing only to the untrained.

ok extend that logic..yes .5 = 50% to some .untrained ..(government types come to mind...sorry...) may be not only be confusing but not true...

[jazznylon]

Are m7b5 and half-diminished 7th chords different?


No. A rose by any other name :-)

What you can't do is simply substitute a m7b5/half-dim for a dom9. If someone notates a rootless dom9 as a m7b5/half-dim they've got the wrong name. That's a different issue.

We very rarely, if ever, resolve a m7b5/half-dim to a I, major or minor. It's not a substitute for a dominant.

This is a new one to me! I could have sworn I heard in the past that a m7b5/half-dim could be used as a substitude over the dominant chord. I feel like I've been lied to

[pingu]

Dhalfdim to Eb ... off the top of my head I can't think of a tune that does that.

jaco called Dm7b5 ‘Bb dom in first inversion’
or something like that ....
Bb9/D , that concept anyway

[Phil59]

Theory is good. Shall we also condem 1/2 = 5/10 = .5 = 50% as being too confusing? It is only confusing only to the untrained.

Hardly the same thing. Of course, anything is confusing only to the untrained. Your example is faulty because it is simple and many are trained. As was said earlier in this thread, "Chord symbols are an ad hoc, frequently illogical system that people take way too seriously." Fewer people are trained in this discipline, mostly because it is more confusing.

[PaulD]

This is the explanation from the Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar book:

[christianm77]

Here’s one I did earlier

[ragman1]

This is a new one to me! I could have sworn I heard in the past that a m7b5/half-dim could be used as a substitute over the dominant chord. I feel like I've been lied to

Playing something over a dominant chord isn't the same thing as replacing one with the other, which is what substitute means.

[rpjazzguitar]

Are they the same chord?

Maybe. Depends who you ask.

Do the people who write the charts you're likely to see pay any attention to this difference?

I doubt it.

So, do you need to treat them differently?

Usually, in jazz, it's a chord with those notes resolving towards a V7 and then Im. So Dm7b5 or Dhalfdim usually go to Gsomething and then to Csomething.

If the resolution is heading towards Eb, than those notes are more a rootless Bb7, at least until somebody plays a low Bb.

I can't call to mind a situation in which I saw Dm7b5 or Dhalfdim resolving to Eb. If there was one, you might need the composer in the room to stop the bassist from playing a Bb.

[pauln]

Dhalfdim to Eb ... off the top of my head I can't think of a tune that does that.

The last of the four descending chords at the end of the first A section into the first chord of the repeat of the A section of Ain't Misbehaven'?

[djg]

Watch this and tell me what you think.

i think you're wasting precious lifetime watching fantasy vids on youtube...

[jazznylon]

Scrolling through the youtube comments of OP's video I came across this comment that perfectly describes the video.

- I travelled from Manchester to meet a friend in London.

He travelled from Paris to a destination he insisted on calling Londres.

“That’s OK”, I said. “Two different names for the same city.”

He shook his head sadly. “No. We started in different places and will return to different places. Therefore we are not now in the same city”

In the confusion thus created he left and I picked up the tab. -

[Marinero]

There are many creative ways to describe any group of notes(chords). Some are straightforward(logically/theoretically) while others(inversions) could, in practice, become creative stretches of the mind. And, for Jazzers, these chord symbols are only a framework/guide to your vision of any piece of music as were the original transcripts of Bach which had no tempo markings, dynamics, and stresses since the intentions of the composer were assumed to be clear to a proficient musician. Theory is important to a musician. But, it must be useful, practical, and functional . . . otherwise, it's just babble.

Good playing . . . Marinero

[bako]

There are many 7th chords that can be viewed as a subset of a larger structure.
This often makes them a viable choice to state the larger structure.
Rootless voicings are a fact of life but the 7th chord is also an entity unto itself.
The argument of m7b5 and half dim. really being minor 6 chords makes more sense to me than this one.
Now I have to admit, there are times that what makes the most sense to me is in conflict with
decisions made by the gatekeepers of music theory truth. I view music theory in this way,
there were the answers expected to pass exams in school and now there is any conceptual organization
that helps me access relevant musical content as a player. Although I may be giving the wrong answer
on the test, I don't find the way the presenter defines the absolutes of functions of these chord names
as useful.

[wolflen]

There are many 7th chords that can be viewed as a subset of a larger structure.
This often makes them a viable choice to state the larger structure.
Rootless voicings are a fact of life but the 7th chord is also an entity unto itself.
The argument of m7b5 and half dim. really being minor 6 chords makes more sense to me than this one.
Now I have to admit, there are times that what makes the most sense to me is in conflict with
decisions made by the gatekeepers of music theory truth. I view music theory in this way,
there were the answers expected to pass exams in school and now there is any conceptual organization
that helps me access relevant musical content as a player. Although I may be giving the wrong answer
on the test, I don't find the way the presenter defines the absolutes of functions of these chord names
as useful.

yes.indeed....
Music Theory Truth, Inc
gate keepers wanted..!!! --illogical but determined a big plus..
must be able to to insult/offend/attack. (with a smile) all who disagree..
an inate feeling of being superior/smug and being an overall better musician than others is required
ability to play an instrument is NOT required..

[Cunamara]

I mostly think of it the way Johnny Smith described it. The notes in the chord may be the same but the function is different, and as a result we call that same collection of notes by different names.

In terms of soloing over it, thinking of it as a half-diminished, m7b5 or minor 6 with the bass in the 6 creates different opportunities for sounds (vii in a major key, ii in a minor key or iii in a major key, for example).

[rintincop]

Leave it to guitar players...

[christianm77]

There are many 7th chords that can be viewed as a subset of a larger structure.
This often makes them a viable choice to state the larger structure.
Rootless voicings are a fact of life but the 7th chord is also an entity unto itself.
The argument of m7b5 and half dim. really being minor 6 chords makes more sense to me than this one.
Now I have to admit, there are times that what makes the most sense to me is in conflict with
decisions made by the gatekeepers of music theory truth. I view music theory in this way,
there were the answers expected to pass exams in school and now there is any conceptual organization
that helps me access relevant musical content as a player. Although I may be giving the wrong answer
on the test, I don't find the way the presenter defines the absolutes of functions of these chord names
as useful.

Relevant is key. Jazz musicians have never been as interested in theory as they are in practice, or praxis.

And simple ideas can take a lot of time and effort to apply. For instance, if I know minor 6's and m7b5's are the same chord, how long does it take me to apply this knowledge consistently and holistically? Years probably...

Jazz theory is ultimately, pretty simple. Application is not.

[wolflen]

Relevant is key. Jazz musicians have never been as interested in theory as they are in practice, or praxis.

And simple ideas can take a lot of time and effort to apply. For instance, if I know minor 6's and m7b5's are the same chord, how long does it take me to apply this knowledge consistently and holistically? Years probably...

Jazz theory is ultimately, pretty simple. Application is not.

well..we have to remember ... its THEORY..not fact...it can be changed/modified to fit "special circumstances" .. which may justify different names for the same chord and you may have to recall
exactly why it was called a minor 6 and not a mi7b5 years later..only to discover..its not worth the time..

to paraphrase Mr. Zappa..shut up and just play the dame guitar

[BWV]

Don’t get the disconnect, min7 b7 on lead sheets is typically subdominant but subbing half diminished chords for the dominant w/root either 4 or 7 or 10 or 1 half step below is dominant, either with or without a bass player providing the root

[Gabor]

Theory is good. Shall we also condem 1/2 = 5/10 = .5 = 50% as being too confusing? It is only confusing only to the untrained.

this is a good one. However I do not agree the "untrained" part. Many trained musician could fall into this. Instead, I see an other issue here which is "overthinking". Even in mathematics, which is full of theory, overthinking may harm creativity and could be a blocker, now take jazz, which is much more about creativity and soul than mathemathics.

I do believe theory is important, but the listener should be aware of overthinking, and should always priorise understanding the music and the performer above understanding how theory justifies it.

[christianm77]

I also think some people are in love with names and labels rather than what they represent.

[djg]

people who talk about "altered minor chords" or claim that II chords *resolve* to V chords have no business making educational videos. it's as simple as that.

[matcarsa]

people who talk about "altered minor chords" or claim that II chords *resolve* to V chords have no business making educational videos. it's as simple as that.

And what about people who talks about "minor chord with 6th in the bass"?

Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

[djg]

And what about people who talks about "minor chord with 6th in the bass"?

Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

they are right.

[grahambop]

they are right.

They are also called Thelonious Monk.

[christianm77]

Monk would make awesome YouTube videos.

[djg]

[Gabor]

being mentioned both dominant 9 and minor 6, now I can resist no more :-)

It is six in one!

Take an interesting voicing which should function as Dm7-5: (Ab, C, D G)

x x 6 5 3 3

This voicing could be Dm7-5, Bb7(add13), Fm6(9), and more: E7alt (b13#9), (this is pretty obvious as it is the tritone sub for Bb7) and more: AbM7(#11) and Gsus4b9
The same is true for the following three voicings too:

x 5 6 5 8 x
x 11 10 7 8 x
x x 12 13 13 15

The mood of Dm7-5 is pretty sad, so minor6 is not surprising. The dominant a bit more surprising, but there are so many dominant kind, so finally it makes sense, that one ore more has similar mood. What is really surprising is the tonic function. (if the voicing fits to the particular progression for the particular function.)

(credits goes to Barry Greene :-)