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  1. #1

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    I am currently doing a theory/harmony assignment to be handed to my teacher next week. I just have a quick and stupid question: does a m7b9 or m7#9 exists in music for minor chords? I tried to text my teacher, but haven't responded yet.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    I am currently doing a theory/harmony assignment to be handed to my teacher next week. I just have a quick and stupid question: does a m7b9 or m7#9 exists in music for minor chords? I tried to text my teacher, but haven't responded yet.
    The first, m7b9 is kind of a Phrygian chord but 7b9sus4 is more common.

    the second. Ok, let me put it this way; what’s the difference between a #9 and a b3?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The first, m7b9 is kind of a Phrygian chord but 7b9sus4 is more common.

    the second. Ok, let me put it this way; what’s the difference between a #9 and a b3?
    Ahh...I see Vm7b9 in Phrygian Harmony, but I just needed someone to clarify this. And the difference between a #9 and b3? That's why this is a stupid question.

  5. #4

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    There was a reason why m7b9 doesn’t get used much. I think maybe it’s in the Levine theory book?

    E G B D F

    My reason would be that with the F and B in it sounds like an inverted G13 chord.

  6. #5
    Another question crept up while in the middle of this assignment: does a m6b9 exists for minor chords?

  7. #6
    Final question and it is pertaining to m7b5 chords: does a m7b5b9 exist for half-diminished chords?

  8. #7
    I just got the text from my teacher that for all minor chords, a b9 doesn't sound good, so leave it out of the list.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    I just got the text from my teacher that for all minor chords, a b9 doesn't sound good, so leave it out of the list.
    Do it anyway out of defiance.

    i hate that kind of teaching. ‘It doesn’t sound good.’

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    Final question and it is pertaining to m7b5 chords: does a m7b5b9 exist for half-diminished chords?
    if you can construct them they exist.

    the question is how commonly used are they?

    I use m7b5b9 all the time but it’s probably against theory or something because avoid notes or some complete bullshit like that.

  11. #10

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    So I don’t think it is a stupid question.

    what I would do is learn what the ‘right’ answers are so you can jump through the hoops and pass the course, but play through the chords yourself and DECIDE what sounds you do and don’t like.

    Maybe you find yourself agreeing with the theories or maybe you find yourself disagreeing.

    music isn’t a series of right and wrong answers.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So I don’t think it is a stupid question.

    what I would do is learn what the ‘right’ answers are so you can jump through the hoops and pass the course, but play through the chords yourself and DECIDE what sounds you do and don’t like.

    Maybe you find yourself agreeing with the theories or maybe you find yourself disagreeing.

    music isn’t a series of right and wrong answers.
    dude, you just need to chill. My assignment is about harmonizing a melody note, by exploring all the possible chord options (Major, Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Dorian Phrygian, Lydian Mixolydian, Locrian) for that particular note. My teacher wants me to make a comprehensive list of chords that sounds good with that particular melody note (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, b7, b6, #4, b3, b2).

  13. #12

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    play through the chords yourself and DECIDE what sounds you do and don’t like.
    This!!!

    b9 is the most crunchy interval although presented inverted as a ma7 or even as a b2 is less so. Different voicings/inversions can maximize or to a degree tame the inherent crunchiness.

    Theory describes sound. Until we can imagine the sounds being described,
    it is necessary to articulate it on an instrument to assimilate a concept or structure.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    dude, you just need to chill. My assignment is about harmonizing a melody note, by exploring all the possible chord options (Major, Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Dorian Phrygian, Lydian Mixolydian, Locrian) for that particular note. My teacher wants me to make a comprehensive list of chords that sounds good with that particular melody note (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, b7, b6, #4, b3, b2)n.
    well that sounds like an assignment that encourages the use of the ears to me.

    ask yourself: am I a musician or someone who asks people what to think on internet?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    well that sounds like an assignment that encourages the use of the ears to me.

    ask yourself: am I a musician or someone who asks people what to think on internet?
    Why can't I be both (ha ha).

    But since I have learned a lot from you via this website, chords like Dom7#9 interest me; 1, b3, 3, 5, b7. (normally played without the 5, I believe).

    I.e. Chords with two half-step apart tones within them. For me these type of chords sound 'odd' when played alone and I can't just throw them in as subs for more standard chords, without them sounding out of place. I really want to start using them more in the jazz standards I play as subs, but don't know how to make them 'fit'.

    Any basic advise of the type of chords one would play before and after using one of these two-half-step-apart-tone chords, to achieve a more consistent sounding progression?

    Thanks
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 05-16-2020 at 05:50 PM.

  16. #15

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    I don’t think there are any stupid questions. Sometimes our brains get in ruts and it helps to have someone give us a nudge. I learned something because you asked a question. Thank you!

  17. #16

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    b9, b13 and 11 (remaining 3 notes of the scale) are all good extensions for min7b5. Of course 11 will typically replace the b5. I use b9 and b13 as moving voices above the guide tones. I like it.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    dude, you just need to chill. My assignment is about harmonizing a melody note, by exploring all the possible chord options (Major, Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Dorian Phrygian, Lydian Mixolydian, Locrian) for that particular note. My teacher wants me to make a comprehensive list of chords that sounds good with that particular melody note (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, b7, b6, #4, b3, b2).
    Chris's post doesn't seem very aggro to me, in fact his post struck me as rather supportive.

    I love a b9 interval in the right spot, and if the chord worked to my ears I'd turn it in to the teach and hope for the best. I like his assignment, because it seems to me like one thing he's doing with it is trying to get and idea of where your ears are.

    To answer your question, yep, they're legitimate chords.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Why can't I be both (ha ha).

    But since I have learned a lot from you via this website, chords like Dom7#9 interest me; 1, b3, 3, 5, b7. (normally played without the 5, I believe).

    I.e. Chords with two half-step apart tones within them. For me these type of chords sound 'odd' when played alone and I can't just throw them in as subs for more standard chords, without them sounding out of place. I really want to start using them more in the jazz standards I play as subs, but don't know how to make them 'fit'.

    Any basic advise of the type of chords one would play before and after using one of these two-half-step-apart-tone chords, to achieve a more consistent sounding progression?

    Thanks
    This really depends on the style of harmony you are going for.

    In traditional harmony dissonances are prepared and resolved - so for instance:

    Dm7 G7#11 Cmaj7 C6 could be played

    5 x 3 5 3 x
    3 x 3 4 2 x
    3 x 2 4 1 x
    3 x 2 2 1 x

    In colouristic harmony, this is not the case. In fact you might use these dissonances in parallel. I like 3 x 2 4 1 x for instance. Or x 7 x 5 3 7. It is a common modern harmony trope to plane chords through the mode or scale keeping the same interval structure (so 6th, 5th, 2nd for the first, or 6th, 2nd, 6th for the second.) But there are lots of options with modern harmony.

    Could you give an example of the sort chord you mean specifically?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    b9, b13 and 11 (remaining 3 notes of the scale) are all good extensions for min7b5. Of course 11 will typically replace the b5. I use b9 and b13 as moving voices above the guide tones. I like it.
    Often I find myself playing

    x 5 6 5 8 x for Dm11b5

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Often I find myself playing

    x 5 6 5 8 x for Dm11b5
    Sounds nice. Moving the 11 back to 3 (x 5 6 5 8 x -> x 5 6 5 6 x), then to G7#5 ( x x 3 4 4 x) then to C-9 (x 3 1 3 3 x) creates a nice descending line on the top.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
    I am currently doing a theory/harmony assignment to be handed to my teacher next week. I just have a quick and stupid question: does a m7b9 or m7#9 exists in music for minor chords? I tried to text my teacher, but haven't responded yet.
    I've seen m7b9 chords. Also m7b5b9 and m7b5b9b13. Also m11b5, m11b9 and m11b5b9.

    I haven't seen a #9, probably because the #9 would already be in the chord (Am9 - the 9 is B so #9 would be C, also the 3rd).

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Sounds nice. Moving the 11 back to 3 (x 5 6 5 8 x -> x 5 6 5 6 x), then to G7#5 ( x x 3 4 4 x) then to C-9 (x 3 1 3 3 x) creates a nice descending line on the top.
    That's the one