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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I think that's how art works... it is illusive.
    I speak my language - you undersand my language.

    Great artists always seem hermetic whe you are outside, and ovewhelming and universal when you are inside.

    It is either this or that with arts
    Probably that's why usual artists usually conform to some usual style.

    EDIT: Good video, btw.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Jazz is still very open style - yes there are historic styles like authentic bop or swing but I do not touch it here - I think most of the players I like they feel jazz as a modern music and in general they can do whatever they want that sounds good for them...
    If one does not have a goal to reproduce the style of the 30s he can take Duke's tune and apply any conception... and he will be right.. you cannot say that it is a 'window dressing' because... well just because it is not for him, for you maybe.. for him not... at that point it is just like that.
    actually a lot of older players were more relaxed about this stuff than modern players, because they weren't told anything was wrong at jazz school. Duke is an excellent example... Also, Django ...

    Actually, after a decade or so of doing the swing stuff, and about as much time taking bop seriously, I feel that main signifiers of historical style are actually as much rhythmic, phrasing/melodic and tone colour/instrumental as they are harmonic. Obviously, I have to work harder to play prewar jazz with a modern electric archtop tone playing than if I have an acoustic.

    For instance Bmaj7-->Cmaj7 ... Sounds pretty old school if you do it in a certain way! And this sub came to me by way of Barry Harris.

    There's limits to this - you aren't going to get away with playing super intervallically all the time on a New Orleans style gig... but you can do it a bit... Can be fun, see what you get away with.

    In fact vertical restrictions on chords I would say is more a characteristic of the more modern players. Chords = colours, more. One way to sound modern is actually to banish tritones from your lines, which gets rid of a lot of the functionality. So don't play dom7, m6, m7b5 and o7 sounds...

    For instance focus on major and minor triads or pentatonics and superimpose them on the chords.

    So
    G7alt becomes Eb/G, Ab/G, Db/G, Db major pentatonic, and so on. This has the effect of creating a colour on that chord, removing it from the realm of voice leading.

    Chord scales broken up into fifths, that kind of thing. Consonant colour tonality. This is something I hear a lot in Lage Lund's playing. Diatonic sevenths and seconds can also be repurposed into semi consonances... For instance, this chord feels non resolving and static:

    x 7 x 5 3 7

    You can also weaken its functional effect by turning it into a compound interval (#11)

    x 3 x 2 3 2

    This is a fun thing to drop into traditional styles. This idea was not in fact alien to people like Django... He played a lot of triads and even major pentatonics, so you get some interesting superposition. Simple example, very stylistic is the Bb triad on E7 (minor swing.) Lage Lund said he really liked Django's playing, interestingly... I'm interested in making the connection in my own playing.

    You can combine this with the motion approach and have a lot of different vibes you can create....
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-28-2020 at 08:52 AM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    the Abm is the II chord of the tritone sub.

    when we improvise over a II-V we have choices. we can use both chords, just the II chord, just the V chord. or we can sub II V with the IV chord.

    if we want to take it a bit outside we can first improvise over the V chord and then over the tritone sub of the V chord. logic dictates that we can apply this principle to our other ideas. i.e. we can improvise over the II chord and then over its tritone sub. or improvise over the IV chord and then over its tritone sub.

    you need to understand that in jazz we improvise not over chords but over functions.
    The tri-tone sub you mean is the Db, right?
    If so, how is Ab the two of that?

  5. #54

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    Abm7 Db7 is a ii-V.

    So Db7 is the V...

    Of course you could also play the I which is Gbmaj7... Now that could be fun Gbmaj7-->Cmaj7.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Abm7 Db7 is a ii-V.

    So Db7 is the V...

    Of course you could also play the I which is Gbmaj7... Now that could be fun Gbmaj7-->Cmaj7.
    I guess the confusion is that I don't believe "if it worked there it must work here" because if functional harmonic references were locally reassigned independently relative to the global tonal harmony, yet the logical relations of the global tonal harmony were shifted and applied to the reassigned local functional references, the reliability or predictability of how the shifted local functional references would actually sound or work within the specific context of a song would be generally undetermined until testing anything unfamiliar by ear.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I guess the confusion is that I don't believe "if it worked there it must work here" because if functional harmonic references were locally reassigned independently relative to the global tonal harmony, yet the logical relations of the global tonal harmony were shifted and applied to the reassigned local functional references, the reliability or predictability of how the shifted local functional references would actually sound or work within the specific context of a song would be generally undetermined until testing anything unfamiliar by ear.
    Yes. This is why theory of this type is actually quite unhelpful.

    Although: it can suggest things to try, and there's nothing wrong with that. But in combination with listening to master musicians, you build up a vocabulary of well worn possibilities naturally.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I guess the confusion is that I don't believe "if it worked there it must work here" because if functional harmonic references were locally reassigned independently relative to the global tonal harmony, yet the logical relations of the global tonal harmony were shifted and applied to the reassigned local functional references, the reliability or predictability of how the shifted local functional references would actually sound or work within the specific context of a song would be generally undetermined until testing anything unfamiliar by ear.
    I understand that... but on the other hand - I like those paths... often think that we connect through some seemingly non-musical conception may begin to sound musically conneceted.
    After all we hear the meanings, the contents - not physics of sounds.

    there are no guarantees - it is all for the subtle and carful ear only

  9. #58

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    So might be a good time for a recap... what theoretical concepts were using and why and how etc...

    1) tri-tone subs... pretty easy, right. invert or flip the tri-tone of Dom. chord and we have another dominant chord.

    key of "C"... G7 is the V7 chord. Invert the tri-tone, "B" and "F", the 3rd and b7th of G7... to become "F" and "B" , the 3rd and b7th of Db7. The Tri-tone sub of G7 is Db7.

    That "Sub" source doesn't need to have a Tonal Reference.... a Key is not required etc... the extensions can be established by a number of organizational methods.

    2) "Relative" subs are another source... the basic reference is "Relative Minor. Again pretty easy, the "Relative Minor of "Cmaj" is "Amin" and visa versa, the "Relative Maj." of "Amin" is "Cmaj".

    This "Sub" source does require a Tonal Reference, a "Key", and has implied extensions.

    3) "Chord Patterns" subs are also a source for "Subs". The most common Jazz "Chord Pattern" is the "II-7 V7".
    II V's imply "Tonal References". All "Chord Patterns" have Tonal References".

    The somewhat bonus of "Chord Patterns" is that they have expanded possibilities of implied "Tonal References". By that I mean.. Chord Patterns can Have different "Tonal Targets".

    Ex. That "II V" can Have as a Tonal Reference or Target of... The II-, the V7 or the implied "I" chord.
    D-7 G7 ... the Tonal Reference can be,
    1) D-7
    2) G7
    3) Cmaj7 or the implied target of the "Chord Pattern"

    So where I'm going is when you use Subs... there is a difference between... "composing" or creating music, and using sub's for improv or soloing.

    When your composing your using Subs to help organized structural aspects of the composition. But when your soloing.... there all ready is an structural organization.... "the Tune" in place. There are already Tonal References.

    And when you begin to "Expand and mix and match" subs sources and principles. It get Muddy.

    As in the thought process of using Tri-tone sub organization to get a new Dom. chord... then adding the II- chord and thinking and using that II-7 chord as a "Relative" relationship. Which has Tonal Relationships... the implied Imaj7 chord.

    My point again is.... if your "Composing" there isn't as many Tonal References... as when playing or soloing over implied Tonal References. The mixing and matching of "Subs" with different organizations of Tonal References, takes practice... Some work and some don't, and for reasons.

    The expanding of "Relative" through the use of "Modal" organization is complicated.

    Ex. So .... / D-7 G7 / Cmaj7 /
    becomes / D-7 Db7/ Cmaj7 / If you add the Ab-7 to the Db7.... it's not really the "Related II-7 ". We just use the Term because of Habit. If it were really the "Related" II- of Db7.... we would be Implying the Tonal Reference of "Gbmaj".

    Which we're not. The Db7 has the tonal Reference of "Cmaj". So the "Ab-7" is really just part of the "Chord Pattern" .

    Again if your using Ab-7 Db7... you would use it in the same Harmonic Rhythm as the "Db7", the Ab-7 isn't subbing or replacing the "D-7".

    The chord progression or solo practice would be.... D-7 (Ab-7 Db7) / Cmaj7 /

    Again the Ab-7 isn't the "Relative" II-7 of Db7, at least when your soloing, comping etc...

    If your using the "Relative" approach your actually changing the implied Music.

    Expanding basic musical concepts, like "Subs" with the use of "Modal" organization gets complicated.

    Yea the other Door, or "Functional" expanded organization, cool, I've been pushing that approach for 40 years.

  10. #59

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    Excellent and timely recap, Reg!

  11. #60

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    Actually lately I think more and more that a melody played with conviction can turn anything into relationship...

    Most of of the truths we believe in after all are just the matter of conviction... if you repeat something to people fast enough and intensive enough without letting them think twice - they will accept it (Hollywood proves that)))

    I am much about harmony as basis but the more you get solid into it the more you feel how the melody (set of melodies maybe) is basically all what's left

    Maybe it sounds strange but some point I feel like I begin to stick to that ambiguity that melody provides more than anything else.. (geeting old?)

    (disclaimer:When I say melody it is not necessarily catchy pop tune of course)

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So might be a good time for a recap... what theoretical concepts were using and why and how etc...
    Great post. Thanks. Bookmarked, copied etc.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Great post. Thanks. Bookmarked, copied etc.
    deleted?

    (kidding)

  14. #63

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    "That "Sub" source doesn't need to have a Tonal Reference.... a Key is not required etc... the extensions can be established by a number of organizational methods. "

    I'd like to understand this material better than I do.

    To start, can someone explain exactly what the quote above means?

  15. #64

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    Hey RP... maybe.... the source or mechanical organization of Tri-Tone subs is just that. The organization of creating Db7 as Sub for G7 is mechanical. The Db7 is a Tri-tone sub of G7 in any key or any Tonal context.
    There is no Tonal reference implied. It will work in almost any tonal context.

    As compared to Diatonic Subs, or Relative and parallel subs. They have Diatonic Tonal references.

    When we bring in Modal references, we're expanding the possible results, but they still have tonal references.
    As with almost anything, there are always exception, but in general.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey RP... maybe.... the source or mechanical organization of Tri-Tone subs is just that. The organization of creating Db7 as Sub for G7 is mechanical. The Db7 is a Tri-tone sub of G7 in any key or any Tonal context.
    There is no Tonal reference implied. It will work in almost any tonal context.

    As compared to Diatonic Subs, or Relative and parallel subs. They have Diatonic Tonal references.

    When we bring in Modal references, we're expanding the possible results,
    but they still have tonal references.
    As with almost anything, there are always exception, but in general.
    somewhere in my explorations of diminished/augmented possibilities..Ben Monder added to the mix by suggesting that

    CMA7 = Eb13b9#5 = AbMA7#5#9..

    now of course on the face of it you may ask...ok..how do you use that info ..(this hit me with ... WAY too much info to process..)

    in a harmonic sense it would require some attention to the overall harmonic / tonal structure
    in a melodic sense it would have to align with some of the melodic direction of the tune

    in a improvisational sense..you can throw away most of the rules and try and tread water as best you can..

    its the circle with a circle routine..the further OUT you go the closer to Home you are ...unless you bring it to a dead stop and start over or go on a sheets of sound rant


    Its nice to see/hear the familier safe side of improv..but when your playing without a net and making it up as you go there is little time or care for what may be around the next turn ..
    wrong notes have been left far behind and no one is really counting anyway
    Last edited by wolflen; 04-28-2020 at 09:44 PM.

  17. #66

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    You just need to know how to resolve. Really then you can do anything then, go in and out of key, it doesn’t matter.

  18. #67

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    An interesting obvious observation I embarrassingly made
    only in the last few years:

    The chord tones of any given 7th chord will never be mathematically further than a whole step from a nearest chord tone move to any other
    7th chord. Therefore, from a close voice leading perspective,
    it is physically possible for any 7th chord to progress to any
    other 7th chord with minimal movement.

    Ex. Gbma7 Cma7

    Gb Bb Db F > G B C E

    or

    Gb Bb Db F > E B C G

  19. #68

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    However, some hit the sweet spot of having enough different notes and not too many common tones to give that sense of satisfying cadence.

    Gbmaj7 -> Cmaj7
    Gb Bb Db F
    G B C E

    Definitely true of this one!

    not so much
    E7–> Cmaj7
    E G# B D
    E G B C

    Generally cadences with the most semitone moves sound most satisfying.

    Consider this then:

    C D E G A - c major pentatonic... in chordal form a C6/9 chord

    Now, what notes are we left with?

    Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb B

    Db—>C or D
    Eb—>D orE
    F—>E
    Gb—>G
    Ab—>G or A
    Bb—>A
    B—>C

    And what’s that scale?

  20. #69

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    E7–> Cmaj7
    E G# B D
    E G B C
    Yes, sometimes too much commonality is less satisfying although I don't mind this one. Could also be interpreted as V I in C or V I in Am.

    Better:

    E G# B D > E G A D

    or

    E G# B D > E G C D

    etc.

  21. #70

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    One way to use VIIMaj7 to IMaj