The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 41 of 41
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Could one of you post an example of what you're talking about .. Show us how to practice on an instrument of your own, so we can get inspired by your proficiency?
    No, you should get inspired by your own. What I will do for you is give you some Berklee exercises that I have been familiar with since 1980:

    1. Play a two octave plus (full across all 6 strings) C major scale in 2nd position in steady eigth notes at bpm = 120. Then play all of Leavitt's other 11 fingerings for the C Major scale from there, up the neck, one position at a time.
    2. Now stay in the 2nd position and play all 12 major scales, starting on C, around the circle of fifths. Make sure to stay in the 2nd position and do NOT shift to 1rst or 3rd.
    3. Repeat step 1 for all 12 keys, always starting in 2nd position, around the circle of fifths.
    4. Repeat step 2 for 12 positions, always starting on C, around the circle of fifths.
    5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 by having a buddy call out either the key or the position, randomly.

    6. Apply all of the above to the Melodic and Harmonic Minors, the Harmonic Major, and the symmetrical scales.
    7. Apply all of the above to arpeggios: at least ten (10) 7th-chord qualities: both one and two-octaves, starting on the root.

    The biggest difference between the above and what I play now is that I don't use all those Leavitt fingerings anymore. I use mostly CAGED with a few stretches here and there. It cuts way down on all that work and is easier on the hands when playing a long scale archtop. But I used Leavitt's challenging fingerings for 25+ years.

    Oh, and do 12 keys for a pre-decided set of chords and voicings too. Circle of fifths and flashcard random style.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-10-2021 at 11:51 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    No, you should get inspired by your own. What I will do for you is give you some Berklee exercises that I have been familiar with since 1980:

    1. Play a two octave plus (full across all 6 strings) C major scale in 2nd position in steady eigth notes at bpm = 120. Then play all of Leavitt's other 11 fingerings for the C Major scale from there, up the neck, one position at a time.
    2. Now stay in the 2nd position and play all 12 major scales, starting on C around, the circle of fifths. Make sure to stay in the 2nd position and do NOT shift to 1rst or 3rd.
    3. Repeat step 1 for all 12 keys, always starting in 2nd position, around the circle of fifths.
    4. Repeat step 2 for all 12 positions, always starting on C, around the circle of fifths.
    5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 by having a buddy call out either the key or the position, randomly.

    6. Apply all of the above to the Melodic and Harmonic Minors, the Harmonic Major, and the symmetrical scales.
    7. Apply all of the above to arpeggios: at least ten (10) 7th-chord qualities: both one and two-octaves, starting on the root.

    The biggest difference between the above and what I play now is that I don't use all those Leavitt fingerings anymore. I use mostly CAGED with a few stretches here and there. It cuts way down on all that work and is easier on the hands when playing a long scale archtop. But I used Leavitt's challenging fingerings for 25+ years.

    Oh, and do 12 keys for a pre-decided set of chords and voicings too. Circle of fifths and flashcard random style.
    I'm trying to understand something about this approach. Clearly, it can be helpful to be able to play any of those scales starting anywhere.

    But, how exactly is the memorization process supposed to work? If you're starting 5 different scales in 12 keys at 12 frets ... is the idea to memorize the fingering of each? How many different patterns? How do you keep them straight? How do you practice them to avoid being root bound (always needing to start from the root when you think about a scale)?

    Or are you memorizing note names and then finding fingerings?

    Can you flesh this out a little?

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm trying to understand something about this approach. Clearly, it can be helpful to be able to play any of those scales starting anywhere.

    But, how exactly is the memorization process supposed to work? If you're starting 5 different scales in 12 keys at 12 frets ... is the idea to memorize the fingering of each? How many different patterns? How do you keep them straight? How do you practice them to avoid being root bound (always needing to start from the root when you think about a scale)?

    Or are you memorizing note names and then finding fingerings?

    Can you flesh this out a little?
    Sure.

    Firstly this is just Leavitt book 2 and especially book 3 material which has been around since the early 70s.

    in a nutshell it’s “all keys in one position” and “one key in all positions”. It just so happens that Leavitt had 12 fingerings for diatonic scales, I’m not actually advocating for that. Reg uses 7, 3NPS system does too (if I recall) CAGED has 5, etc. I use CAGED so would play “one key in 5 locations” (not 12) that would span 12 frets of course. And “all keys in one area” (not position). In other words I would indeed slide up and back 1 fret for some keys.

    more in a sec…. ok back.

    Memorize fingerings? Yes. Is that a lot? Yes, but it’s not that bad. Fingering charts assist with visualization. Berklee has you learn them in order per semester; Major, Mel minor, Harm minor, Harm major. Then you have to maintain them or memory fades pretty quickly, hehe.

    Regarding your other question, well, one has to learn all the modes too, not just the parent scales. Then arpeggios - from all inversions. It’s a lot of work but is doable if you put in the practice time (like a music major).

    I hope that helps a little.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-11-2021 at 01:03 AM.

  5. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Could one of you post an example of what you're talking about .. Show us how to practice on an instrument of your own, so we can get inspired by your proficiency?
    Leavitt ‘s method is 5 positions analogous to caged until vol 3, hundreds of pages later. I don’t understand his insistence on that point. They still sell these books. Whatever.

    Anyway, Fumble fingers doesn’t post playing a far as I’ve ever seen, regardless of user name. He’s just there to tell you how you should be doing it.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    We're talking about taking a tune thru 12 key .. in the context of a tune there will only be 12 keys, tho you can off course practice twice in the key of F and claim that the second run was actually in the key of E#
    I made a thread about playing through all 24 keys, including taking Blue Monk through all 24. I changed the melody to fit minor. However, the rest of the tunes I used were either major or minor. Autumn Leaves has both. I never read anyone post before me that they were talking specifically about taking a tune through all the keys. People were just talking in general about all 12 keys. There aren't 12 keys tho, there are 24.

    I'm going down with the ship

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    It's not that difficult to practice in all keys. Just pick a different key every day. For that day, practice everything in your chosen key.... technique drills, scales, arpeggios, chords, inversions, tunes. Tomorrow, pick a different key. Don't repeat a key until you hit all twelve (or twenty-four if you want to work minor keys separately).

    .

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    I think it’s good to practice everything. Pick a system, master it, pick another one.

    the other thing is I don’t think it’s helpful to conflate fingering and fretboard mapping. It’s not just conventional positions you need. You want to be able to play diagonal positions, play scales along one string, with open string overring, four nots a string, two notes a string, all sorts. In the end it’s about flexibility.

    When it comes on finding a place to start, I think Leavitt, CAGED is good. I don’t like 3nps for beginners.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The NYC wedding musicians of my youth could play any tune in any key without changing the bored expression on their faces.

    My guess is that they might not have even known what key they were in.

    I think many of us can do that with a 12 bar blues. And, that fewer can do it with Stella.

    My point is that the goal is for one key to be no more difficult than another. If you have the ability to think of a melody and play it, starting on any finger/fret/string, you may not need to practice simple melodies in 12 keys. Of course, really difficult lines may require practice and changing key may change fingering and picking.

    Similarly, with chords. Most of us can probably go to a IV chord in a blues without thinking. I think that a well-rounded pro can do that with his repertoire of standards -- not memorizing anything in language, but just pre-hearing the next chord and having their fingers go to it without thought.

    When you can pick up the guitar and start playing a song you know in a random key, with your fingers finding the chords as you go, without much thought, you're there. When you can get through a song, like Stella, without ever having figured out what key you're in, you've got it.
    There’s no mystery to this. It’s what happens when you learn several hundred standards. The keys thing isn’t really a big deal .

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Leavitt ‘s method is 5 positions analogous to caged until vol 3, hundreds of pages later. I don’t understand his insistence on that point. They still sell these books. Whatever.

    Anyway, Fumble fingers doesn’t post playing a far as I’ve ever seen, regardless of user name. He’s just there to tell you how you should be doing it.
    The point is to get through the method of course, to get past it.

    My west coast ex Berklee instructor heading up the guitar program at Dick Grove’s school had us learn 12 fingerings day 1. We used Leavitt’s fingerings, not his books. Grove's school was a competitor of sorts to Berklee so that would have been brand cannibalistic, as they say.

    As far as your personal attack on me, I have indeed posted short performances of my playing in a variety of styles. We’ve covered this before. I couldn’t care less if you didn’t see them or can’t find them. What I won’t do is feel compelled to do so when one of my “friends” like yourself or Lobomov does the sensitive ego, macho throw down thing. “How dare that guy go on talking musicianship and pedagogy without asking my permission! How dare he know something that I don’t and beat me to posting it!".

    Look knucklehead, I (foolishly?) was a music major and spent valuable time and money on that pursuit. You guys didn’t. Don’t blame me if you didn’t go to GIT, Dick Grove's, USC, UNT or Berklee, blame yourself. I was a guitar teacher of mostly kids after leaving Dick Grove's while still completing my undergrad in something much more economically stable. You’re a guitar teacher of kids now. I live in a large competitive city. Most guitar teachers here have a bachelors or even masters in performance, you have neither. Again, your choice/shortcoming. I’m not an accountant but studied some accounting. Am I supposed to feign ignorance of same when around accountants? Am I to pretend that I never learned accounting? Fat chance of that.

    With regards to you two gentlemen, I have never witnessed your playing either. I have seen you play some exercises, rather casually I might add. Since you do it for a living, why not post a real musical performance instead? Something of performance length, at level 6 or above, with full technical control and artistic expression, dynamics, and feeling etc. You’re a professional so it should be a walk in the park.

    But with regards to taking the “post a performance or shut up” challenge, I’ll simply give you the same answer my older brother gave to me once with his little sarcastic smile that really pissed me off - “nah, I don’t work for you”. It was kind of a nice way of saying GFY, because I’m much bigger than he.

    Ciao.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-11-2021 at 04:10 PM.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le jazz.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I have to repeat Christiaan Van Hemert here:

    What is the point of learning a song in 12 keys when you're only going to play it in 1 or 2 keys?
    Learn 12 songs in different keys instead!
    Hi, L,
    Because this is just the opinion of one person(CVH) and it doesn't set any standard for musical education or growth for any but a few. Don has done an excellent job detailing what IS taught in quality, structured music programs across the world versus Van Hemert's "No Theory" approach to playing taught on his YT channel. However, the choice is yours but his concept should, in no way, be considered mainstream or used to denigrate a classical musical education for any musician. My belief after messing with music for almost 60 years is that no matter what the approach . . . some people will NEVER play creative, non-robotic Jazz or possess moving Classical musicianship. You're born with it. Period. A quality education and billions of hours woodshedding brings it to life.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Play live . . . Marinero

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    The point of playing songs in 12 keys is training-in some instinct. The goal is to hear the tune in your mind and have your fingers go to the next chord without thought. Same as you can hear a I chord in a blues go to the IV chord and you play it without any thought.

    I never studied Leavitt's method or CAGED. I was taught 3nps per Chuck Wayne for major chords. Later, I tried to learn Warren Nunes' 7 patterns (analogous to modes).

    But, mostly, when I tried to learn patterns I couldn't get very far. Even for the patterns I know, I can't easily start them in the "middle".

    I've posted this before, so apologies for the repetition.

    At some point, I realized that I knew where every note in a Cmajor scale was, without thinking. I knew the fretboard from learning to read. Every note, no thought. I was about as quick with Fmajor, Bbmajor, Ebmajor and D.

    I then decided to work on the rest of the keys. I wanted to know the notes, instantly, without thought. From there, it was simple enough to learn the b3, b5, b7, b9 and #9. (I still take a moment on #5, but I'm working on that). Natural minor is free. Melmin just requires an adjustment of one note. I never worked on harmonic minor (because I can hear it pretty well) or harmonic major (I probably should). Diminished scales, frankly, are confusing in my approach.

    I then decided to learn the notes in the chords I play. Every key.

    A quick aside on keys. There are 12. But, you have to know the enharmonic equivalents instantly too. For scales, you might think that you could get away with knowing F# and Gb as separate things. But, in fact, if you see a lot of unfamiliar charts, you're going to see every note as a root eventually. Even the offensive ones like E#, because some guys let their notation software transpose.

    So, learning all that stuff is a lot of work. But, it has some real advantages. Perhaps most important, you can play anything anywhere, starting anywhere. If the chord, say, is Ebm7b5, you instantly know that the chord tones are Eb Gb A Db. You can find them anywhere. You may also instantly know that you can use the notes from Emajor or F#melmin. You instantly know that you can make it an Ebm9b5 in most situations. And, you know, or can hear, that you don't want the b3 and the nat7 is going to change it to a minormajor, which you may not want either. The more you do it, the more automatic it becomes.

    One of the advantages, or so I've read, of thinking dorian, mixo, ionian for a ii V I is that it helps you place the chord tones on the strong beats. If you know the notes of the chords, you don't have to worry about that. You think tonal center and chord tones and you can do it.

    Another advantage of the approach is that it's helpful in comping. You can find chord fragments on the fly. It's an alternative to thinking of grips. You can see guide tone lines more easily when you know the notes. It's helpful in arranging for horns if you do that.

    The main disadvantage is that practicing patterns allows for greater speed. That's significant for people who want to play that way.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    This is utterly stupid, but ok ... I'll play along


    You've forgotten Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian and Locrian

    There are 84 keys. Don't forget to adapt the melody to fit the relevant mode, be it major, minor or locrian for that matter


    Have fun!
    You're mad now because there are 24 keys? Those are called modes. And they can also be used to create tonalities. There are more tonalities than major and minor such as blues with mixo/blues scale, dorian minor/ minor with major like melodic minor, but they're variations of major and minor.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Attention!!! Attention!!!

    Endless, pointless theory debate warning! Endless, pointless theory debate warning!

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    So Ionian and Aeolian are not modes, but the rest are?
    Ionian and Aeolian are both modes and the scales that create the keys. The rest are just modes which can be used in the keys or other tonalities.

    A song is an entity that can be played in 12 keys.
    Fine. There are still 24 keys in general. C major is not A minor. Your point that songs are almost always in one or the other proves it.

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Im not claiming that C major is A minor.

    im saying that if you manipulate a song in C major to fit A minor then it is no longer the same song cause youve changed the melody.

    You have 11 posibilities of transposition with any given song. Not 23.
    Agreed.