The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Piano players (for instance) needs to change fingerings in order to play other keys, but guitarists don´t. As we all know, practicing in 12 keys is a good advice for everybody, but sometimes it is reduntant (specially for guitar). Do you think the equivalent would be practicing with different fingerings?

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  3. #2

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    I find that practicing/playing from different positions and in keys roughly a fourth apart helps all aspects of my playing.

  4. #3
    I've spent the last year or so cycling a lot of material in half steps, whole steps, minor 3rds and 4ths. At the advice of a pro on the forum, I limited this to one position at a time, which basically yields the two aspects you're talking about at the same time. It's a pretty good way to approach things.

    In practice, it's not that simple in the beginning, for me. That's more the end goal. Until I have my ears (and fingers) around something, it's often much easier to work things technically in a single key, multiple positions. Once it's under the fingers and in the ears, cycling in single position is another layer of understanding which is really helpful.

    My starting point is basically 2nd position and 7th position for everything. Again, that's just to start.

  5. #4

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    Yes practicing with diffrent fingerings is a good Idea, Just like practicing chords with diffrent fingerings is a good idea. It helps with qucik changes and key changes.

  6. #5

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    I've done some of the same work Matt mentioned above in the Patterns For Jazz study group (which seems to be on a long hiatus now).

    In the Garrison Fewell study group many things are played through "Cycle 5" as Garrison calls it but the fingerings are limited. He doesn't want things played every possible way (-which players such as Frank Vignola and Mimi Fox encourage, and God knows they're great players) but only in a few very specific ones. I find that useful. The fretboard feels increasingly familiar.

  7. #6

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    It all depends on the goal.

    If the goal is maximum flexibility and efficiency for all kinds of music, including slow chord melody and comping at high tempo, then I'd suggest practicing songs in 12 keys, focusing on several (4 or 5) areas of the fingerboard.

    If the goal is to be able to use open strings as needed, then practicing in every key becomes even more important.

  8. #7

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    Also depends on how you actually conceptualize and execute music.

    One extreme is to strive to be able to play anything and everything (all the chords and melodies of all songs, each song in all keys) from within any single given position. This is the tightest of what you could call the "wrapping boundary" because all the fingering is bound within the position and extensions of the first and fourth fingers as needed. From a practicing perspective, this is the brute force of theory, knowing the finger board completely, and knowing the names of everything. From a performance perspective, this is the confidence of keeping one's eyes off the finger board when reading a lead sheet... doesn't mean you have to not look or stay in one position, but you could if you wanted to.

    Another extreme is freely moving all over the place; the loosest of what you could call the "wrapping boundary". This by the brute force of playing by ear. From a practice perspective it is mostly exploratory, learning the span and edges of the boundary. From a performance perspective, it generally lends itself to playing a song in a particular key so the boundaries are known, and knowing that when the limits to the finger board, or playability, or just tone preference boundaries are approached one has to wrap around and shift to a different root string orientation to stay within the boundary. One learns the particular parts of each key where one encounters the wrapping boundary, which extent varies with how each player uses the guitar.

    Most of us probably contract or expand our wrapping boundaries intuitively from song to song, style to style, night to night.

  9. #8

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    So just to make sure I understand this correctly (and sorry for resurrecting the thread, I just thought it'd be more appropriate than creating a new one on the same subject): it's only useful to practice in all keys in one position (so that we learn new fingerings), or, less useful but still helpful, to keep the pattern but move enough frets so that the distance between frets gets wide (or narrow) enough to force use of different fingers, stretches, etc.

    Is that correct? Because otherwise we can just carry a pattern a few frets up or down and switch keys with not much effort or exercise value, to my mind at least.

    The unqualified recommendation to practice in all keys on the guitar has always puzzled me a bit, since, of course, it's theoretically possible to learn a single "box" and just move that a few frets up or down and we're in a different key. I can see how it would always be very useful for piano players, though.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by unstrung
    So just to make sure I understand this correctly (and sorry for resurrecting the thread, I just thought it'd be more appropriate than creating a new one on the same subject): it's only useful to practice in all keys in one position (so that we learn new fingerings), or, less useful but still helpful, to keep the pattern but move enough frets so that the distance between frets gets wide (or narrow) enough to force use of different fingers, stretches, etc.

    Is that correct? Because otherwise we can just carry a pattern a few frets up or down and switch keys with not much effort or exercise value, to my mind at least.

    The unqualified recommendation to practice in all keys on the guitar has always puzzled me a bit, since, of course, it's theoretically possible to learn a single "box" and just move that a few frets up or down and we're in a different key. I can see how it would always be very useful for piano players, though.
    I understand the question. Where I've evolved my thinking over the past several years is away from thinking about positions as much as knowing each key across the entire fretboard, meaning:


    1. When you see a written note, you immediately know where that note is under your fingers
    2. For any key, you know all the notes on the fretboard in that key. For example, if the key is B major, you have a sense of "B-ness" across the entire board, rather than a scale position that say starts with the tonic on the 7th fret E-string
    3. When the key changes, you can instantly shift your mindset around that new key, so now perhaps you're feeling the "D-ness" of the entire board, which guides your fingers
    4. Within each tonal center, you have a feel for what is part of the subdominant, dominant, and tonic qualities or functions, so you're not further having to think of say E-7 or Gmaj7 as "E-ness" and "G-ness" separately, but rather just the subdominant part of "D-ness"


    That requires that you pay attention to how each key feels, uniquely, under your fingers across the entire fretboard.

    So, yes, it is worthwhile to practicing in all 12 keys, even if fingerings on a relative basis are redundant.

  11. #10

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    Good answers have already been entered above but I’ll try to repeat in concise fashion.

    1. Yes 12 keys but not chromatically on the guitar, as that brings in the thoughtlessness problem described above. So circle of 5ths, by major second, minor third - and - “flashcard” style or random. Be cognizant of the key every time. The random flashcard approach will keep you honest there.

    2. Different string sets and 2-3 fingerings for an idea ought to about do it. Sometimes there is only one good fingering for an idea, no lie. OTOH, if it’s a pattern like 1231, 2342, 3453 etc, then sure play in all fingerings in your preferred fingering system, whether that be CAGED, 3NPS, Leavitt, whatever.

  12. #11

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    I don't think it's as essential to work all keys on guitar compared to piano, but I still think it's useful and a good idea. PS: there are 24 keys.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    I don't think it's as essential to work all keys on guitar compared to piano, but I still think it's useful and a good idea. PS: there are 24 keys.
    The 24 keys part is somewhat confusing to me, and every time I approach the subject it seems to escape me even worse than before. I now think everyone is right once you take into consideration the context they're using. Here's Victor Wooten further complicating the issue (ironically, while claiming that "music theory is simple") :


  14. #13

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    What is confusing? You have to know different chords and scales to play in minor even if it shares a key signature with a major key. However, double counting the enharmonic keys like Vic said isn't really necessary.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    What is confusing? You have to know different chords and scales to play in minor even if it shares a key signature with a major key. However, double counting the enharmonic keys like Vic said isn't really necessary.
    Well yes, perhaps I've overstated my confusion. I just meant that some people say 12 keys (and think that it's implied that you're practicing both majors and relative minors), some just mean 12 (and don't think about the minors at all), some say 24, and some apparently count 30, and everyone might be right in the end (practice-wise).

    Sorry if my previous post came out argumentative, there was no intention to sound harsh at all (or to dispute your assesment). It was just a clumsy attempt at humour.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    What is confusing? You have to know different chords and scales to play in minor even if it shares a key signature with a major key. However, double counting the enharmonic keys like Vic said isn't really necessary.
    It is if you want to be a competent sight reader. You don't know how your arranger is going to spell every chord, esp C#/Db, F#/Gb.

    That Vic Wooten clip is really interesting but I don't get how it's supposed to be practical. I want to know, in an instant, for any given key, no matter how it's spelled, what notes are available to me while I'm playing. Knowing that Db major has 5 flats because D major has 2 sharps does me no good. I should just know that Db major has 5 flats.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
    It is if you want to be a competent sight reader.
    Ah

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by unstrung
    Well yes, perhaps I've overstated my confusion. I just meant that some people say 12 keys (and think that it's implied that you're practicing both majors and relative minors), some just mean 12 (and don't think about the minors at all), some say 24, and some apparently count 30, and everyone might be right in the end (practice-wise).

    Sorry if my previous post came out argumentative, there was no intention to sound harsh at all (or to dispute your assesment). It was just a clumsy attempt at humour.
    I know you weren't being salty. I don't think 12 is accurate though. There's way too much material left out if you only practice as if there are 12 keys. Minor is its own thing. You don't get it if you only practice major.

  19. #18

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    Hi, R,
    I have my own take on this idea to learn the fingerboard and increase fluency in all keys: playing melody, chords, and scales beginning on the top 4 strings- E, A, D, G. So, begin with any tonal center . . .let's say "C." 6th string/8th position;5th string/3rd position; 4th string/9th position; 3rd string/5th position. 1.) Begin a scale on the tonic and play it two octaves. 2.) Create a chord(triad) based on the tonic. 3.) Play the melody within the context of the tonal center. This is the fastest and least boring way to learn the fingerboard and if an intermediate student devoted 20 minutes of a practice session to this concept, they would be crawling through the keys in 30 days and walking comfortably in 90 days. A variation is to start with scales . . . then tackle chords and melody. I hope this helps.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  20. #19
    There’s more to the topic than simply how many patterns there are or whether they repeat. That’s fine in theory, but what can you execute on the fly?

    Are you talking about playing a tune by ear on the bandstand or are you talking about wood shedding more complex material which you can’t easily “hear” yet? They’re actually very different concerns and require different understandings of the instrument.

    I have been wood shedding material I can’t necessarily “hear”great yet, especially when cycling through different keys. Anyway, much of learning to “hear” something comes from having some kind of mechanical understanding and working through it until you can. Some kind of connection to absolute pitch?

    Anyway, extended chromatic over dominant chords from the 2nd. I’m mostly OK cycling half steps and fourths, but slow down when cycling minor thirds. Of course it’s an ear problem at this point, but there is a mechanical understanding, like on the piano or saxophone for practicing this material until I fully get it in my ears.

    Anyway, much of these discussions seems to be about playing tunes in different keys versus wood shedding difficult, unknown material in cycles the way horn players do. Are they different things requiring different thought process?

  21. #20

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    I agree with Matt (I think). There seems to be topic creep, at least as I understood the OP. There is a difference between knowing a tune in several keys and mechanically woodshedding a particular exercise in 12 keys.

    For a pianist or saxophonist the same passage may have radically different fingering depending on key. Much less so on the guitar. Deliberately moving through 12 keys leads to a lot of repetition.

    That’s not necessarily bad. You can use it as a way to define how many times you repeat an element of your practice. It will likely add to your fretboard knowledge, perhaps expand your ears a little bit. But I don’t think it is essential in the way it may be for piano.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  22. #21

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    1. Knowing how to play a single particular melody/phrase/motif/lick in twelve (12) keys - involves playing in different positions (assuming same fingering, same string set). This applies to both major and minor.

    Q: Worth practicing?
    A: YES.

    Playing the same musical idea in different keys around the circle of fifths and in random order are good challenges to test your facility.


    2. Knowing how to play a single particular melody/phrase/motif/lick with different fingerings in one (1) single key - involves the use of different string sets and different starting fingers.

    Q: Worth practicing?
    A: It depends.

    Playing reasonable fingerings that "enable the successful rendering of the musical idea" should be your practical constraint boundary. In other words, playing every possible fingering under the sun - just because you can (or almost can) - is not a musical requirement.

  23. #22

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    "For a pianist or saxophonist the same passage may have radically different fingering depending on key. Much less so on the guitar. Deliberately moving through 12 keys leads to a lot of repetition." rlrhett

    Hi, R,
    Yes and no. As a former saxophonist, there were no "patterns" as we have on guitar. I played years after I had good technique before I could play all scales, chords and their inversions by rote. There is no other way to improvise unless you memorize your licks. Period . . . and is that Jazz??? However, true facility in all twelve keys on the guitar gives you the same advantage as the performing piano player. You'll get a lot of last minute calls to "sub", studio work, and especially those gigs working with vocalists. So, the advantage of playing in all twelve keys is if you know the chord progression, you'll never be stumped and by using different strings as your starting point, that Eb you'd might be tempted to play on the 6th string/11th position is much more comfortable using the tonal center on the 5th/4th/or 3rd string.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  24. #23

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    The NYC wedding musicians of my youth could play any tune in any key without changing the bored expression on their faces.

    My guess is that they might not have even known what key they were in.

    I think many of us can do that with a 12 bar blues. And, that fewer can do it with Stella.

    My point is that the goal is for one key to be no more difficult than another. If you have the ability to think of a melody and play it, starting on any finger/fret/string, you may not need to practice simple melodies in 12 keys. Of course, really difficult lines may require practice and changing key may change fingering and picking.

    Similarly, with chords. Most of us can probably go to a IV chord in a blues without thinking. I think that a well-rounded pro can do that with his repertoire of standards -- not memorizing anything in language, but just pre-hearing the next chord and having their fingers go to it without thought.

    When you can pick up the guitar and start playing a song you know in a random key, with your fingers finding the chords as you go, without much thought, you're there. When you can get through a song, like Stella, without ever having figured out what key you're in, you've got it.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Could one of you post an example of what you're talking about .. Show us how to practice on an instrument of your own, so we can get inspired by your proficiency?
    I don't think this was addressed to me, but here's a partial answer.

    Pick a random fret/finger/string and play Happy Birthday. If you can't do it without mistakes, I'd suggest working on the ability to hear a phrase in your mind and have your fingers play it, without any thought.

    This is accomplished with time on the instrument. So, if you're noodling in front of the TV, try to copy every melody you hear in the background music or commercials. Or, think of a melody and play it starting anywhere.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    We're talking about taking a tune thru 12 key .. in the context of a tune there will only be 12 keys, tho you can off course practice twice in the key of F and claim that the second run was actually in the key of E#
    Correction. The OP was not specific about the material in question - i.e. not necessarily a tune. The OP was focused more on fingerings and negotiating the architecture of an instrument.