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  1. #1

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    Which one is you kids are using for the V chord

    Is it this one?

    1 2 #2 3 #4 5 #5 b7 7

    I think it sounds quite good. But it's basically whole tone with a passing tone no?

    I suppose it also parents all the triads and seven note chords on 1 3 and #5, but not sure what that means.

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  3. #2

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    Hi, you can read all about Nelson Veras and the way he uses this on this site, with audio examples... Beyond Borders. Broadening the Artistic Palette of (Composing) Improvisers in Jazz. by Dick de Graaf

    i think the Messiaen Scales are synthetic symmetrical scales and defy traditional harmony. Just as diminished and augmented do.

    Barry Harris tried to incorporate diminished in regular scales, and I think he’s right what the diminished triad is concerned, but not for the diminished scale.
    some authors have tried to redefine augmented as a variant of the third mode of melodic minor. This would limit the use of it, while the essence of symmetrical scales is their own weirdness and not their diatonic nature.

    Jean Marc Belkadi uses diminished on just about every chord. To me, it proves the point that symmetrical scales weave in and out of the harmony in a peculiar magical symmetrical way. And that’s what makes them sound special. But, it takes a real master musician to make it work.

    but, then again, that’s just me, )

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djang View Post
    Hi, you can read all about Nelson Veras and the way he uses this on this site, with audio examples... Beyond Borders. Broadening the Artistic Palette of (Composing) Improvisers in Jazz. by Dick de Graaf


    Barry Harris tried to incorporate diminished in regular scales, and I think he’s right what the diminished triad is concerned, but not for the diminished scale.

    , )
    I am deeply familiar with the chord systems that Harris teaches. I don't understand what you are saying when you write
    "but not for the diminished scale. "

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djang View Post
    Hi, you can read all about Nelson Veras and the way he uses this on this site, with audio examples... Beyond Borders. Broadening the Artistic Palette of (Composing) Improvisers in Jazz. by Dick de Graaf
    I haven't got into Veras yet. I know he's a thing. I like his playing that I've heard, very musical. It's more of Holdsworth thing I was thinking of, actually. I heard someone using this scale on a V7 chord and it sounds great, but very Allan. I think it's the one I identified above, but was wondering if anyone else was dicking around with it and wanted to check... I think it's fairly well known.

    i think the Messiaen Scales are synthetic symmetrical scales and defy traditional harmony. Just as diminished and augmented do.
    Well yes, you can go to Wikipedia to look that up. Actually, I've known about them for about 20 years, but filed them away in a 'quite interesting may get around to doing something with that shit someday' part of my brain, along with 12 tone note rows (and yes I have a book about improvising with those as well that I have not opened in about 5 years) and went off to focus on not sucking completely at tonal playing.

    The scale the jazz musicians call 'the diminished scale' is identified one of these Messiaen modes, although you can trace right back to Rimsky Korsakov, and further.

    I might be wrong but I think jazzers first encountered mode 3 though Holdsworth. Allan AFAIK just liked this scale as it was one of the permutations he worked out that he actually enjoyed the sound of (he talks about it in his instructional vid from the 80s). I have no idea whether he knew Messiaen's music or not, or whether these scales were used in his music. It wouldn't surprise me but I don't know.

    (Interestingly, some of Allan's other scales resemble Barry Harris's, although in the vid he says he didn't use them as a source of chords, but only of lines.)

    Barry Harris tried to incorporate diminished in regular scales, and I think he’s right what the diminished triad is concerned, but not for the diminished scale.
    some authors have tried to redefine augmented as a variant of the third mode of melodic minor. This would limit the use of it, while the essence of symmetrical scales is their own weirdness and not their diatonic nature.
    Basic (non wanky jazz bollocks) theory is that augmented and dim7 chords are parented by the harmonic minor, and that was their origin in classical common practice harmony. Therefore, if you use that sound on those chords, you get the most conventional and melodic sound.

    Symmetrical scales OTOH lift you out of the tonality in an interesting way, which is probably why Trane liked them. I think he may have got them from Dennis Sandole, who was into all that shit as early as the 40s. (although jazz musicians had been into the whole tone scale since the 30s. Not sure when dim got popular).

    I'm not quite getting what you mean about Barry? Barry's 8-note scales are based on the block chord harmonisation schemes of the 1940s... BH never claimed to have invented them, but rather points to their use in music going back to Bach and Chopin. They use a diminished seventh in combination with ether a maj6, min6, dom7 or dom7b5 chord to come out with a scale that you can use for non parallel motion and rich added note chords as well as conventional 40s style harmonisations and block chord soloing of the George Shearing school.

    I don't think he likes the 'diminished scale' very much (BH would call it dim-dim, right - a dim7 a semitone below a dim7) - he uses dim symmetry a lot but always relates it to more diatonic sounds like the dominant (mixolydian) scale. Maybe someone can expand on that.

    I on the other hand, have got more into it through Peter Bernstein. He uses it a lot harmonically.

    Jean Marc Belkadi uses diminished on just about every chord. To me, it proves the point that symmetrical scales weave in and out of the harmony in a peculiar magical symmetrical way. And that’s what makes them sound special. But, it takes a real master musician to make it work.

    but, then again, that’s just me, )
    I don't know this musician, will have to check him out. I've never been a fan of the scale really as a melodic sound. Its value to me is in the triads and interesting pungent chords it contains, but maybe I will change my mind.

    I'm also not a huge fan of too much parallel chromatic motion - especially on guitar - and symmetrical scales can sound a bit like this all the time if you aren't careful. See also Messiaen, he obviously like that sort of thing.

    Anyway, this is fairly irrelevant lol.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-20-2020 at 05:04 PM.

  6. #5

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    Barry Harris plays around with the symmetry of the dim arpeggio, which gives you a lot of options on a dominant chord.

    But on the I chord (major or minor), his use of diminished is a dim arpeggio from the natural 7th, 9th, 4th, b6. When you hear Pat Metheny’s Hermitage, the I chord is diminished from the root.
    it’s the chord that Mark Levine describes as D/Eb (if the tune is in Eb).
    you hear this chord in Nightlake (Abercrombie and Beirach) and in Wisteria (George Mraz) as played by Beirach and Jimmy Raney. Jimmy, this fluent bebop master, struggles greatly with this chord. Respect for Jimmy Raney for being open to this kind of harmony.

    Much as I like Nelson Veras and Holdsworth, they also have the tendency to really blur the melody and harmony to the point of sounding “whatever”. The Holdsworth jazz album... I don’t get it, sounds weird, Nelson Veras playing standards is much the same: it’s almost like he’s playing a different tune on top of the tune. Their approach works better on tunes that are already far out or over static harmony.

    If Steve Coleman, Coltrane, Liebman or Scofield go into far away tonal centers, there is always that groove and/or melody, that gives a great weird feeling, but without sounding completely off.

    there is this Gary Thomas version of Giant Steps, on a Wallace Roney album: it’s all Messiaen, but has that drive and bebop phrasing going on. so exciting.

    My idea is, if you phrase it well and combine it with more traditional harmony, it sounds k*ll*r. Don’t have the chops to prove it, , sadly, but there is this Steve Neff video where he plays the Coltrane Sequence anywhere, and he means anywhere, and not related to the harmony whatsoever, but with good phrasing, on any standard... and it sounds amazing. Since it is symmetrical, it weaves in and out of the tune. Fascinating stuff.

  7. #6

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    Here is my topic on the third Messiaen mode , writed on 2014-10-20

    This 9 tone scale, who is containing a Whole Tone scale and an Augmented scale is composed of 3 successive tetrachords :211211211.

    T 9 #9 3 #11 5 #5 b7 7
    It will be transposable four times
    Each of the 4 transpositions contains 3 pivot notes, forming between them an augmented fifth, separated by a major third .
    On the guitar,the fingering of those transposition is is easy.

    First Transposition or ” 3/1 T” C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B C

    The 3 pivot notes are :C Ab E, with the C+ Ab+ E+ relationship.
    It does imply that, on the guitar, you can begin to play , from the 6 string to the 1st string, 3/1 T beginning on Ab (4th fret), or C (8th fret) or E (12th fret)
    Triads and chords:
    The completed triads and chords permitted by the 3/1T are with the 3 pivot notes: C Ab E
    On those 3 notes ,you have :

    -triads: maj augm min dim
    Chords: maj7 maj7 #5 min7 minMaj m7b5 7 7b5 7#5

    On the others note, you have only certain triads and chords; you can easy calculate them. Note however the existence of a Ebm,Gm and Bm.More of that later in the post.

    Second transposition or ” 3/2T” B C# D Eb F Gb G A Bb

    Pivot notes: B Eb G, with the B+ Eb+ G+ relationship

    On the guitar , you can play 3/2T ,same fingerings that 3/1T,but on the 7th,3th or 11th fret of the sixth string E (B or Eb or G)
    The complete permitted triads and chords are the same as for 3/1T,but this time beginning on the notes B Eb and G
    On the others notes of 3/2T , you will have only certain triads and chords .Note the existence of a Dm F#m and Bbm

    Third Transposition, or ” 3/3 T” Bb C Db D E F F# G# A

    Pivot notes :Bb D F#,with the Bb+ D+ F#+ relationship.

    On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the 2nd 6th or 10th fret of the 6th string,E (F# or Bb or D)
    The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/3T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T,but beginning on the notes Bb D and F#
    On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of a C#m Fm and Am

    Fourth Transposition, or “3/4 T “ A B C C# D# E F G G#

    Pivot notes : A C# F ,with the A+ C#+ F+ relationship
    On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the First fret, 5th or 9th fret (F,A,C#) of the 6th string E.
    The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/4T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T, and 3/3T but beginning on the notes A,C# and F
    On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of Cm Em and G#m


    USING THE SCALE IN JAZZ IMPROVISATION

    1-Writing a tune with the notes and chords of one of the four transposition

    2-Playing the 9 notes scale on a triad or a chord inside the choosed transposition.
    The notes of the scale , wich are foreign to the choosen chord or triad will sound “out”

    Ex: play the 9 notes of 3/1T on Cmaj7, Cmaj7#5,Cm7,CminMaj,Cm7b5,C7b5,C7#5

    3-Jens Larsen suggestion:

    “I often use this scale over a chord that has an augmented sound in the upper structure,and in this case,I ignore that the Tonic is not in the scale”

    The 4th Messiaen mode - Jens Larsen
    (Curiously,he name in his blog the 3th Messiaen mode the 4th (?) ,but no matter)

    On 3/1T :

    The 3 notes Db F or A are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: Db minMaj, FmMaj,AmMaj.Play the 9 notes of 3/1T on those chords.
    Play the 3/1T on : -Ebm-Ab7 DbmMaj :you got a IIm-V7-IminMaj,thanks to Ebm.As Gm Bm are Also in this Transposition,you can form :Gm-C7-FmMaj and Bm-E7-AmMaj

    On 3/2T

    The 3 notes C Eb Ab are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: C minMaj, EmMaj,AbmMaj. Play the 9 notes of 3/2T on those chords.
    Play the 3/2T on Dm-G7- CmMaj. F#m-B7-EmMaj. Bbm-Eb7-AbmMaj and you got three IIm-V7-IminMaj ,thanks to those chords in the Transposition

    On 3/3T

    C#m-F#7-BmMaj, Fm-BB7-EbmMaj and Am-D7-GmMaj

    On 3/4 T
    Cm-F7-BbmMaj, Em-A7-DmMaj, G#m-C#7-F#mMaj

    4. Finally ,it is possible,as mentionned ,to form II V I suites .You could choose to play on the IIm,the V7 or even the ImMaj or Imaj7 a Messiaen III mode of limited transposition,if you choose the chords in his appropriate transposition.

    Good luck with those Messiaen III transpositions!

    emilP


    Last edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 2014-10-20 at 09:43.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilP View Post
    Here is my topic on the third Messiaen mode , writed on 2014-10-20

    This 9 tone scale, who is containing a Whole Tone scale and an Augmented scale is composed of 3 successive tetrachords :211211211.

    T 9 #9 3 #11 5 #5 b7 7
    It will be transposable four times
    Each of the 4 transpositions contains 3 pivot notes, forming between them an augmented fifth, separated by a major third .
    On the guitar,the fingering of those transposition is is easy.

    First Transposition or ” 3/1 T” C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B C

    The 3 pivot notes are :C Ab E, with the C+ Ab+ E+ relationship.
    It does imply that, on the guitar, you can begin to play , from the 6 string to the 1st string, 3/1 T beginning on Ab (4th fret), or C (8th fret) or E (12th fret)
    Triads and chords:
    The completed triads and chords permitted by the 3/1T are with the 3 pivot notes: C Ab E
    On those 3 notes ,you have :

    -triads: maj augm min dim
    Chords: maj7 maj7 #5 min7 minMaj m7b5 7 7b5 7#5

    On the others note, you have only certain triads and chords; you can easy calculate them. Note however the existence of a Ebm,Gm and Bm.More of that later in the post.

    Second transposition or ” 3/2T” B C# D Eb F Gb G A Bb

    Pivot notes: B Eb G, with the B+ Eb+ G+ relationship

    On the guitar , you can play 3/2T ,same fingerings that 3/1T,but on the 7th,3th or 11th fret of the sixth string E (B or Eb or G)
    The complete permitted triads and chords are the same as for 3/1T,but this time beginning on the notes B Eb and G
    On the others notes of 3/2T , you will have only certain triads and chords .Note the existence of a Dm F#m and Bbm

    Third Transposition, or ” 3/3 T” Bb C Db D E F F# G# A

    Pivot notes :Bb D F#,with the Bb+ D+ F#+ relationship.

    On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the 2nd 6th or 10th fret of the 6th string,E (F# or Bb or D)
    The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/3T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T,but beginning on the notes Bb D and F#
    On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of a C#m Fm and Am

    Fourth Transposition, or “3/4 T “ A B C C# D# E F G G#

    Pivot notes : A C# F ,with the A+ C#+ F+ relationship
    On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the First fret, 5th or 9th fret (F,A,C#) of the 6th string E.
    The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/4T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T, and 3/3T but beginning on the notes A,C# and F
    On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of Cm Em and G#m


    USING THE SCALE IN JAZZ IMPROVISATION

    1-Writing a tune with the notes and chords of one of the four transposition

    2-Playing the 9 notes scale on a triad or a chord inside the choosed transposition.
    The notes of the scale , wich are foreign to the choosen chord or triad will sound “out”

    Ex: play the 9 notes of 3/1T on Cmaj7, Cmaj7#5,Cm7,CminMaj,Cm7b5,C7b5,C7#5

    3-Jens Larsen suggestion:

    “I often use this scale over a chord that has an augmented sound in the upper structure,and in this case,I ignore that the Tonic is not in the scale”

    The 4th Messiaen mode - Jens Larsen
    (Curiously,he name in his blog the 3th Messiaen mode the 4th (?) ,but no matter)

    On 3/1T :

    The 3 notes Db F or A are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: Db minMaj, FmMaj,AmMaj.Play the 9 notes of 3/1T on those chords.
    Play the 3/1T on : -Ebm-Ab7 DbmMaj :you got a IIm-V7-IminMaj,thanks to Ebm.As Gm Bm are Also in this Transposition,you can form :Gm-C7-FmMaj and Bm-E7-AmMaj

    On 3/2T

    The 3 notes C Eb Ab are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: C minMaj, EmMaj,AbmMaj. Play the 9 notes of 3/2T on those chords.
    Play the 3/2T on Dm-G7- CmMaj. F#m-B7-EmMaj. Bbm-Eb7-AbmMaj and you got three IIm-V7-IminMaj ,thanks to those chords in the Transposition

    On 3/3T

    C#m-F#7-BmMaj, Fm-BB7-EbmMaj and Am-D7-GmMaj

    On 3/4 T
    Cm-F7-BbmMaj, Em-A7-DmMaj, G#m-C#7-F#mMaj

    4. Finally ,it is possible,as mentionned ,to form II V I suites .You could choose to play on the IIm,the V7 or even the ImMaj or Imaj7 a Messiaen III mode of limited transposition,if you choose the chords in his appropriate transposition.

    Good luck with those Messiaen III transpositions!

    emilP


    Last edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 2014-10-20 at 09:43.
    Thanks very much!

    This:
    3-Jens Larsen suggestion:

    “I often use this scale over a chord that has an augmented sound in the upper structure,and in this case,I ignore that the Tonic is not in the scale”

    Might seem very 'out there' and modern but you can actually hear Wes doing exactly this with a whole tone scale in Four on Six on Smokin' at the Half Note.

    Gm(maj7) = G Bb D F# = G + Bb aug triad

    Wes plays Bb whole tone on Gm(maj7)

    So by that logic, can use the Messian mode 3 as well...

    So it also goes on C7(#11), Bbmaj7#5, Em7b5... but that's the whole tone - the Messiaen mode ought to parent more triads than that, also.

    That said, it gets to a point where you can theoretically justify sounds you can't hear, if you aren't careful, at which point I think, what's the difference between this and just playing random triads on chords and deciding what I like...

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djang View Post
    there is this Gary Thomas version of Giant Steps, on a Wallace Roney album: it’s all Messiaen, but has that drive and bebop phrasing going on. so exciting.
    Was fortunate to meet and hang with Kevin B Clark last time I was in NYC. He studied with Gary at Peabody Conservatory. Kevin mentions that Gary’s playing is heavily informed by this mode. Kevin also plays in a band with Gary and has assimilated this information on the guitar. A great player and composer, it’s refreshing also that he doesn’t sound anything like Veras or AH.
    Allan’s thing with the diminished scale was it had to be handled carefully, as it was too easy to fall into those public domain diminished licks which he thought were “kind of lame”
    Cheers

  10. #9

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    Why are we still talking about the diminished scale lol?

  11. #10

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    Your in the same mould as this guy cHRISTIAN..

  12. #11

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    Cool. I’ll just go and record the Goldberg Variations.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Cool. I’ll just go and record the Goldberg Variations.
    I had that album. Wore it out without ever hearing the whole thing.

    I kept nodding off.




  14. #13

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    this kind of stuff fascinates me...i have several extended posts on the diminished/augmented scales and their related chords...

    Its not the scales that I first find useful..but the chords they contain and the implied harmonic/melodic lines that can be explored in diatonic/chromatic/static harmonic backing..implied or realized..and using the scale fragments and the chord arpeggios to connect the chords or alter them drastically and bring back some balance with diatonic melodic patterns and then launch into further explorations...

    Here is where players like Scofield and prog rock players.. Govan, Johnson, Quail use whole tone scales and other symmetrical sounds that will work in many harmonic settings and not ask for forgiveness but may be requested for more of the same by the listeners...using polytonal concepts..Tri-Tone scales and basic triads and their inversions with added tones and moving voices which all reinforce the diminished/augmented scales as a source for this kind of exploration..this is a massive amount of improvisation material for any genre of music

    yes few take the journey into seeing the far ends of this kind of stuff..but for those of us who do there is no turning back...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I'm not quite getting what you mean about Barry? Barry's 8-note scales are based on the block chord harmonisation schemes of the 1940s... BH never claimed to have invented them, but rather points to their use in music going back to Bach and Chopin. They use a diminished seventh in combination with ether a maj6, min6, dom7 or dom7b5 chord to come out with a scale that you can use for non parallel motion and rich added note chords as well as conventional 40s style harmonisations and block chord soloing of the George Shearing school.

    I don't think he likes the 'diminished scale' very much (BH would call it dim-dim, right - a dim7 a semitone below a dim7) - he uses dim symmetry a lot but always relates it to more diatonic sounds like the dominant (mixolydian) scale. Maybe someone can expand on that.
    That is one way Barry Harris uses the 6th diminished scales. But there is another use which I think represents a different way of hearing the harmony than the more modern jazz (60's onwards?).

    In the my understanding BH sees Maj7 or Maj9 chords as Maj6 with borrowed diminished notes. Borrowed diminished notes suggest movement toward the nearest consonant voicings sort of like a suspension. So in that approach, say, the Maj7 sound contains a tension that begs resolution, Maj 9, Min 11 want to move etc. This was also may be true in Bach's music. Voices that contain these "color" notes resolved to more consonant triads or 6th chords. I think that's how old pianists thought about harmony and it is what BH teaches.

    Obviously in more modern music these voices are not dissonant (unless they clash with the notes they are harmonizing). In the end it's up to the composer to establish the logic of the harmony for the listener. You can establish triads and 6ths as the consonant targets and 7th, 9th, 11ths etc as dissonant suspensions or you can make these 7th 9th 11th as the resting sounds (a bit sweeter and spacier versions of the more focused consonant ones). BH harmony I think implies the former.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-05-2020 at 11:00 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    That is one way Barry Harris uses the 6th diminished scales. But there is another use which I think represents different way of hearing the harmony than the more modern jazz (60's onwards?).

    In the my understanding BH sees Maj7 or Maj9 chords as Maj6 with borrowed diminished notes. Borrowed diminished notes suggest movement toward the nearest consonant voicings sort of like suspension. So in that approach, say, the Maj7 sound contains a tension that begs resolution, Maj 9, Min 11 want to move etc. This was also may be true in Bach's music. Voices that contain these "color" notes resolved to more consonant triads or 6th chords. I think that's how old pianist thought about music and it is what BH teaches.

    Obviously in more modern music these voices are not dissonant (unless they clash with the notes they are harmonizing). In the end it's up to the composer to establish the logic of the harmony for the listener. You can establish triads and 6ths as the consonant targets and 7th, 9th, 11ths etc as dissonant suspensions or you can make these 7th 9th 11th as the resting sounds (a bit sweeter and spacier versions of the more focused consonant ones). BH harmony I think implies the former.

    What do you think?
    This is all correct. Barry took a basic concept from 1940s jazz pianists and arrangers and massively expanded it.

    I don’t think people appreciate that all of the standard CST options are available within the BH approach plus extras.

    That said Barry’s harmony does often tend towards these older sounds .

    Barry Harris demonstrates the use of the maj6 up a 5th. So Gmaj6 on C... that’s afaik how he sees maj9 chords

    (it’s like using Em7 on C basically)

    Now you can use the maj6 dim scale on that.

  17. #16

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    Incidentally Holdsworth mentions both the maj6-dim and the min6-dim along with Messiaen mode 3 (not by name) in his famous instructional video from the 80s, but he never thought to make chords from them as he did with the other scales.



    the belief that music is fundamentally built on scales is something he has in common with Barry.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    This is all correct. Barry took a basic concept from 1940s jazz pianists and arrangers and massively expanded it.

    Barry Harris demonstrates the use of the maj6 up a 5th. So Gmaj6 on C... that’s afaik how he sees maj9 chords

    (it’s like using Em7 on C basically)

    Now you can use the maj6 dim scale on that.
    This's another example of what I'm saying actually. He doesn't use maj6dim on the maj6 up a 5th. He treats those notes (7th and 9th) as diminishes and resolves them back to the 6th chord.
    I'm referencing Alan's book when I say this (p21 to 25). Do you have a source that shows BH apply Maj6 diminished to 6th on the 5th, I'm curious?
    Even though Alan's book talks a lot about applying maj6dim in various context, here interestingly he only shows moving these two voices back and forth.
    Say C6 is the 5th of F6, then G and E of C6 (diminished notes of F6) is moved to F and D to form F6. He shows two ways of doing this over five pages but never over the 6dim scale.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    This's another example of what I'm saying actually. He doesn't use maj6dim on the maj6 up a 5th. He treats those notes (7th and 9th) as diminishes and resolves them back to the 6th chord.
    I'm referencing Alan's book when I say this (p21 to 25). Do you have a source that shows BH apply Maj6 diminished to 6th on the 5th, I'm curious?
    I can’t think of one.

    Possibly you are right; He just did it in a lesson.maybe just the chord.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I can’t think of one.

    Possibly you are right; He just did it in a lesson.maybe just the chord.
    Yeah I guess he must have. It's crazy not to do apply maj6dim in a way once you see these extensions in the maj6 form.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Yeah I guess he must have. It's crazy not to do apply maj6dim in a way once you see these extensions in the maj6 form.
    you do get #9 and #11 sounds which are not so Barry ... but I think a lot his teaching is actually pretty open ended.

  22. #21

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    What Chris said...

    if you hear Barry Harris play Monk tunes, he goes in all kinds of directions. I can not hear many instances where he uses his diminished concept, but I do hear whole tone harmony, a lot of reharmonization, symmetrical movement of add9triads, turnarounds (complex ones like on Rhythm-A-Ning which he plays in Bb, he takes 4bars of this turnaround: Badd9, Eadd9, Aadd9, Dadd9 and so on till he kind of reaches Bb), like Monk plays them, Lady Bird cadences, the bridge to Have You met Miss Jones... advanced stuff.

    this takes great skill and if you try it without really practicing, your head can actually explode, if it isn’t your guitar.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    This's another example of what I'm saying actually. He doesn't use maj6dim on the maj6 up a 5th. He treats those notes (7th and 9th) as diminishes and resolves them back to the 6th chord.
    I'm referencing Alan's book when I say this (p21 to 25). Do you have a source that shows BH apply Maj6 diminished to 6th on the 5th, I'm curious?
    Even though Alan's book talks a lot about applying maj6dim in various context, here interestingly he only shows moving these two voices back and forth.
    Say C6 is the 5th of F6, then G and E of C6 (diminished notes of F6) is moved to F and D to form F6. He shows two ways of doing this over five pages but never over the 6dim scale.
    I studied with Barry and he sometimes does play C6 dim scale over F Maj. Just go look at his Barry Harris, Rome 11/03/2016 video, he says it at 10:55. He digs his major 7th chords, all the beboppers did. He also likes playing that specific E-7/Bb7 type voicing (b9 #11) just as Monk did.
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-05-2020 at 11:58 PM.

  24. #23

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    I suppose if you play

    Em7 Ebm7 Dm7 G7 over a 1 6 2 5 in C in the left hand that voicing emerges naturally.

    its a doozy that one; I’ve heard it called the Herbie voicing...

  25. #24

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    I can’t help but notice no ones talking about the Messiaen mode 3 tho lol.

    is everyone clear on what it is?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    I studied with Barry and he sometimes does play C6 dim scale over F Maj. Just go look at his Barry Harris, Rome 11/03/2016 video, he says it at 10:55. He digs his major 7th chords, all the beboppers did. He also likes playing that specific E-7/Bb7 type voicing (b9 #11) just as Monk did.
    I was referencing Alan's book. Although 6dim scales are a big part of the concepts described in the book and come up often, in that context interestingly he only shows 2 borrowed diminished notes go back and forth.

    I didn't claim that BH dislikes Maj7ths or he never uses it (no clue how I made it sound like that). Of course he used it. In fact it's part of the whole borrowing concept as I said above.

    What I said was, Maj6dim scale is consistent with a view of harmony where upper extensions with respect to 6th chrods (7th, 9th, 11th) are seen as tensions that want to move. In fact in Alan's book that's exactly how Maj7 chords are discussed, maj 6 with one borrowed diminished. This view of harmony seems the be common in older generation jazz pianist which BH is part of.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-06-2020 at 06:58 AM.

  27. #26

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    I'm not sure if this answers your question but go to 4:55 for mode 3;


  28. #27

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    I was taught that scale by a keyboard player/ arr./composer who put out a few albums. I think he called it the major/minor scale. I used it on +11 +5 chords in a horizontal way rather than a linear way.