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  1. #1

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    I guess it's really no surprise that there are so many jokes about how dumb guitarists are. But given all the free knowledge and repertoire available nowadays,why does this still hold true?

    Beyond theory, repertoire always is weak, reading skills, harmony,etc.
    This is especially true of many non Jazz musicians, like modern Pop guitarists. They can hardly play anything above a major 7 or even know their fretboard notes.

    I also recognize just because one is good at harmony you must also juggle melody and rhythm equally to play well.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    The most ignorant? Nope.

    One word: vocalists.

  4. #3

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    Guilty as charged.

    I've still got so much to learn.

  5. #4
    I would venture many here are more aware of harmony since Jazz requires some knowledge or at least being able to near the changes and form of the song.

    Something I find sadly quite lacking in many guitarists of other genres of music.
    I will say there are exceptions but not very many unfortunately!

  6. #5

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    I'm going to defend pop guitarists. I don't see them as ignorant at all.

    A good pop guitarist has a lot of vocabulary. The pop player is likely to know a whole bunch of famous solos, rhythm parts, full songs, ways to get different well-known sounds, and more. They're likely to have a carefully constructed pedal board and be able to call up a wide range of sounds, instantly. They can sound "like the record", for a lot of records.

    They probably can hear pop harmony and know immediately what the chords are. Their time is likely to be good, at least for the styles they play. They are likely to be able to play quality solos, within the genre. Many can sing, including singing harmony.

    Many are aware that appearance is part of performance and they can dress and act the part.

    What are they unlikely to do? Read single notes. Why bother in their world? A lot of their stuff actually might be better communicated with tab, because it's not just the notes, it's also the sound. A lot of the time there are guitar tricks involved which can be clearer from tab (and I say that as somebody who is a pretty good reader of standard notation). They might struggle to solo over complicated harmony, but they don't play that stuff anyway. They probably don't have much fluency in jazz (or classical or flamenco or anything else they don't work on), but the same can be said of any musician who works mostly within a style.

    Now, for a word about jazz players.

    In a jazz band, the horn players, pianist and bassist are very likely to be better readers than the guitar player. Repertoire and fluency depend on the players. Guitarists may hold their own there. I suspect, but it's based on a small sample, that horn players have more familiarity with important historical jazz recordings, but that's because more of them featured horns than guitars. Same argument for piano.

    But, on the other hand, a lot of the time guitar charts are harder to read than any chart in the big band except for piano. Horns and bass play one note at a time. They focus on the upper left corner of page one and their eyes follow the staff. That's not the same for the guitar. If the guitarist is reading chord symbols, he has to move his eyes up and down to see the hits. If the hits are written out on staffs, he's got to decipher all that ink, on the fly. Since the guitarist doesn't play syncopated single notes as often as a horn, he gets less practice with that skill. The horns, and sometimes the bass, play the line in front of them and that's enough. The guitarist stares at slash marks and has to invent a part, on the fly, that stays out of the pianist's way, while remaining audible, propulsive and, somehow, helpful. A lot of the charts I see have hits which aren't even written in on the guitarist's chart, so the guitarist has to figure them out and maybe write them in, all while the rehearsal or gig progesses.

    The pianist, to give credit where it's due, has to do everything the guitarist has to do, plus, he has a left hand. It's actually amazing how well they do.

  7. #6
    Pianists ,bassist and horn players all for the most part are way better educated musicians than at least 95% guitarists I've ever met or heard.
    Name any song written on Guitar sans Antonio Carlos Jobim, that has great harmony in it.

    Even Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney used the piano to write their better songs like "In My Room" "Good Vibrations", "The Long and Winding Road", "Fool on the Hill" I'm great with 4 chord rock or Pop but one should also understand harmony and being able to play in more than one key.

    I just think as guitarists we should be equally as proficient in music.And at least be able to read a basic chart well.

  8. #7

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    I once took charge of a medium-sized Big Band of quite a high standard. Six guitar players asked me to let them join. Obviously that was too many, so we held auditions. Not one of them knew how to play a C Major scale. Not one. Three of them complained that I was being unfair, as "jazz players don't play the major scale". And, of course, not one of them could read standard notation. They wanted tabs for everything. Needless to say we lived without a guitar player.

  9. #8

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    “Pop guitarist” covers a wide gamut from singer songwriters who might strum basic but functional accompaniments to session players who could probably also play jazz to a high level.

  10. #9

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    I find that in general, most guitarists tend to be mostly self taught and the least equipped to function with other musicians that had some public school or beyond music training.

    This doesn't keep them from having a satisfying experience with music due to the guitar's major role in music for soooo long. Four chords cover a lot of ground, and was good enough for Hank Williams. Ignorance can be bliss, and some folks become clever when faced with limits.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I once took charge of a medium-sized Big Band of quite a high standard. Six guitar players asked me to let them join. Obviously that was too many, so we held auditions. Not one of them knew how to play a C Major scale. Not one. Three of them complained that I was being unfair, as "jazz players don't play the major scale".
    I haven’t heard that one before haha

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I once took charge of a medium-sized Big Band of quite a high standard. Six guitar players asked me to let them join. Obviously that was too many, so we held auditions. Not one of them knew how to play a C Major scale. Not one. Three of them complained that I was being unfair, as "jazz players don't play the major scale". And, of course, not one of them could read standard notation. They wanted tabs for everything. Needless to say we lived without a guitar player.
    I play in an octet in which, most dates, I'm the worst reader in the band (I can read, but I don't always get the parts right the first time or few). There have been a few times when a horn or piano sub was even worse, but none of those people were invited back. Yet, they gave up trying to get subs on the dates I can't make it. Apparently, they couldn't find a guitarist who could read well enough to sub -- to be fair to them, I couldn't do it either-- as a sub -- on some of the tunes, but, as the regular player, I get multiple chances. They have no trouble getting subs for every other chair. Overall, I wouldn't say it speaks well for the basic musicianship of guitarists, as compared to horns, bass and piano.

  13. #12

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    I'm not even going to read this thread...
    (Jk)
    Last edited by arielcee; 04-08-2020 at 06:04 AM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm going to defend pop guitarists. I don't see them as ignorant at all.

    A good pop guitarist has a lot of vocabulary. The pop player is likely to know a whole bunch of famous solos, rhythm parts, full songs, ways to get different well-known sounds, and more. They're likely to have a carefully constructed pedal board and be able to call up a wide range of sounds, instantly. They can sound "like the record", for a
    lot of records.
    They probably can hear pop harmony and know immediately what the chords are. Their time is likely to be good, at least for the styles they play. They are likely to be able to play quality solos, within the genre. Many can sing, including singing harmony.

    Many are aware that appearance is part of performance and they can dress and act the part.

    What are they unlikely to do? Read single notes. Why bother in their world? A lot of their stuff actually might be better communicated with tab, because it's not just the notes, it's also the sound. A lot of the time there are guitar tricks involved which can be clearer from tab (and I say that as somebody who is a pretty good reader of standard notation). They might struggle to solo over complicated harmony, but they don't play that stuff anyway. They probably don't have much fluency in jazz (or classical or flamenco or anything else they don't work on), but the same can be said of any musician who works mostly within a style.

    Now, for a word about jazz players.

    In a jazz band, the horn players, pianist and bassist are very likely to be better readers than the guitar player. Repertoire and fluency depend on the players. Guitarists may hold their own there. I suspect, but it's based on a small sample, that horn players have more familiarity with important historical jazz recordings, but that's because more of them featured horns than guitars. Same argument for piano.

    But, on the other hand, a lot of the time guitar charts are harder to read than any chart in the big band except for piano. Horns and bass play one note at a time. They focus on the upper left corner of page one and their eyes follow the staff. That's not the same for the guitar. If the guitarist is reading chord symbols, he has to move his eyes up and down to see the hits. If the hits are written out on staffs, he's got to decipher all that ink, on the fly. Since the guitarist doesn't play syncopated single notes as often as a horn, he gets less practice with that skill. The horns, and sometimes the bass, play the line in front of them and that's enough. The guitarist stares at slash marks and has to invent a part, on the fly, that stays out of the pianist's way, while remaining audible, propulsive and, somehow, helpful. A lot of the charts I see have hits which aren't even written in on the guitarist's chart, so the guitarist has to figure them out and maybe write them in, all while the rehearsal or gig progesses.

    The pianist, to give credit where it's due, has to do everything the guitarist has to do, plus, he has a left hand. It's actually amazing how well they do.
    I believe that sums up the situation quite nicely. Thank you!

    I have a few maxims, and this is one of them:
    "You are your repertoire." What you do, or can do, delimits your practicable scope at any given time. Also: "You are what you practice." And whatever you've practiced last is at the top of the pile. Practice digging deeper in the pile to avoid staleness.
    Reading is important, and I sure wish I was better at it, but it is essential to be able to leave the dots behind, and let the music out.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Name any song written on Guitar sans Antonio Carlos Jobim, that has great harmony in it.
    George Harrison - "Beware Of Darkness" plus some other tunes by him - I think they were written on guitar...

  16. #15

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    What is great harmony?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What is great harmony?
    Good question. I guess the OP refers to "complex" harmony?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Good question. I guess the OP refers to "complex" harmony?
    i don’t know what that means either lol.

    complex harmony - as in complex chords? Or complex voice leading? Unusual progressions? Predictable, classic progressions? Bassline movement? Modulations? Modal interchange?

    i think someone who hasn’t checked out much rock/pop stuff or interrogated their basic assumptions would say this. Harmony has changed stylistically, but Tin Pan Alley has its own cliches.

  19. #18

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    Here’s some things to be getting on with:








  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i don’t know what that means either lol.

    complex harmony - as in complex chords? Or complex voice leading? Unusual progressions? Predictable, classic progressions? Bassline movement? Modulations? Modal interchange?

    i think someone who hasn’t checked out much rock/pop stuff or interrogated their basic assumptions would say this. Harmony has changed stylistically, but Tin Pan Alley has its own cliches.

    OK, OK - I get it!

  21. #20

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    there was a 90s vogue for striking chord progressions in alt/indie rock...

    Otatonic whole half scale in a rock song? Well why not.



    So is this great harmony? Maybe not in the Cole Porter sense. But what these song writers do is use harmony to create striking effects that are important for their music.

    And while the guitar voicings might be simple (sometimes) the arrangements have to be taken in totality.... as Beato will tell you, Cobain’s melody is on the upper extensions as much as any Jobim song...

    Furthermore, some musicians did this very much aware of the theory (Radiohead, Jeff Buckley) and others totally did it by ear... doesn’t matter.

  22. #21

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    Do I detect a slight tone of snobbery here?

    Anyway, I concur that reading provides a useful discipline and can open many doors though, as a self-taught-by-ear player, I still sit bemused while I watch a conservatory-trained musician writing down a phrase I'm calling out before he/she can play it!

    These days with a looper and an octave pedal, a guitarist has a lot of scope for composing, by the way.

  23. #22

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    Or this:



    I really need to listen to Modern Life is Rubbish again. It actually came with the chord symbols in the lyrics sheet so you could strum along haha.

    i was a good enough musician back then to look at the progressions and go ‘lol....wut?’... (Blur got this from Madness and Cardiacs as far as I know. Cardiacs also influenced Radiohead and ... err... Napalm Death.)

    This is what Cardiacs sound like; the missing link between punk, Messiaen, circus music and early Genesis. Make sure you listen to the whole thing. It’s mind blowing.


  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Pianists ,bassist and horn players all for the most part are way better educated musicians than at least 95% guitarists I've ever met or heard.
    Name any song written on Guitar sans Antonio Carlos Jobim, that has great harmony in it.
    I thought your original post made some very good points, but I don’t agree with this at all. if you you have a listen to the harmony and compositions of Allan Holdsworth, Tim Miller, Kurt, Kreisberg to name but a few relatively recent examples,you will find, I think, players with a unique and adventurous Harmonic signature. Also it’s a bit of a handicap already, reading on guitar, due to the nature of how the instrument is laid out. It would be interesting to note if there are any players that tune the instrument in fourths that are also “jobbing” musicians having to do a lot of different gigs where reading is involved. I wonder wether it would make reading any easier tuning in fourths.Hmmmm!
    Cheers

  25. #24

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    I love the lame defense of ignorance guitar-owners always revert to. It's even funnier on a "jazz" board.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzism
    I thought your original post made some very good points, but I don’t agree with this at all. if you you have a listen to the harmony and compositions of Allan Holdsworth, Tim Miller, Kurt, Kreisberg to name but a few relatively recent examples,you will find, I think, players with a unique and adventurous Harmonic signature. Also it’s a bit of a handicap already, reading on guitar, due to the nature of how the instrument is laid out. It would be interesting to note if there are any players that tune the instrument in fourths that are also “jobbing” musicians having to do a lot of different gigs where reading is involved. I wonder wether it would make reading any easier tuning in fourths.Hmmmm!
    Cheers
    True: although, no one really cares about that music apart from freaks like us. I particularly rate Kurt as a composer. I think there’s a commonality to his musical language and some of the 90s bands I mentioned; prob unconsciously. Such as major and minor chords with the same third, and so on...

    Metheny as well, and guitar music was a big influence on him.... But yeah I figured the OP wasn’t really talking about jazz guitarists.

    i thought there was a case to be made for music by big famous guitar bands that real people actually listened to coming up with some very cool and creative harmony out of the instrument.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    I love the lame defense of ignorance guitar-owners always revert to. It's even funnier on a "jazz" board.
    i don’t really seek to judge (or defend for that matter) other musicians. Waste of energy best elsewhere.

    there is a lazy stereotype here on both sides that I just find a bit ... dull? Not to say that that stereotype isn’t manifested in the most boneheaded ways.

    OTOH plenty of highly skilled professional musicians never came up with an original musical idea in their careers either. But that’s not their job.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-08-2020 at 09:07 AM.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein
    The most ignorant? Nope.

    One word: vocalists.
    Well, most professional vocalists I know can read music. They often come out of conservatory or church backgrounds. On the other hand, a vocalist only has to read one line.

    Of course, almost everywhere in the world, people who are herding band or orchestra members make a distinction between "musicians" and "singers"...

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena

    Of course, almost everywhere in the world, people who are herding band or orchestra members make a distinction between "musicians" and "singers"...
    I thought it was "musicians" and "drummers"....

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Do I detect a slight tone of snobbery here?

    Anyway, I concur that reading provides a useful discipline and can open many doors though, as a self-taught-by-ear player, I still sit bemused while I watch a conservatory-trained musician writing down a phrase I'm calling out before he/she can play it!

    These days with a looper and an octave pedal, a guitarist has a lot of scope for composing, by the way.
    Yeah this is all context sensitive. There are classically trained players who can sight read fly shit and can’t earhole Happy Birthday. Seriously.

    And speaking of classical players most are completely ignorant about how to compose music, harmony, theory and all the other technical aspects. They purely exist to interpret music from the page. And the score is sacrosanct.

    professional jazz musicians otoh can read, play by ear, compose, arrange and improvise. They might not be as good at some of these things as a full time specialist, but their breadth of knowledge makes them very useful in the pop/rock world, theatre bands and so on.

    Look, if I had to give a guitar player advice on what to do to get professional work i would advise them to learn to read AND work on their ears. Because they’ll need both.

    That said, I think everyone should be able to read a bit. It’s fun to be able to open some music and have a go at playing it... and a lot of theory books etc are inaccessible without reading .

  31. #30

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    As a postscript to my post above, I have to add that that applies to professional singers in these days of modern times.

    Ezio Pinza never learned to read music (he started as a professional bicycle racer), in spite of attending conservatory. He would quickly learn his parts by ear, listening to a pianist playing it.

    And my father, who was a professional opera singer, got more than one rôle because he could read music, a skill shared with too few other baritones alive at that time.

  32. #31

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    On the other hand, a friend of mine moved to Nashville a long time ago. He thought he might find a slot as a studio guitarist. So, he was in a studio checking things out and met a regular. I don't know who it was. My friend asked if he knew All The Things You Are. The guy said he thought so and proceeded to play a solo version of it with melody, chords, and walking bass all at the same time. My friend became a successful music journalist instead. I'm willing to bet that the studio guy couldn't read standard music notation very well if at all.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    I love the lame defense of ignorance guitar-owners always revert to. It's even funnier on a "jazz" board.
    It's almost as entertaining as knee-jerk condescension, wouldn't you agree?

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    On the other hand, a friend of mine moved to Nashville a long time ago. He thought he might find a slot as a studio guitarist.
    did he? Bless.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    I'm willing to bet that the studio guy couldn't read standard music notation very well if at all.
    I wouldn't be so quick to bet if I were you. Those Nashville studio guys are among the best in the business, able to play music of any genre, able to transpose on request, and able to record a new song with minimal rehearsal. Stands to reason that many of them can read music.

    Now pedal steel guitarists – those that can read music are worth their weight in gold. There are mighty few of them, I've been told.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    I wouldn't be so quick to bet if I were you. Those Nashville studio guys are among the best in the business, able to play music of any genre, able to transpose on request, and able to record a new song with minimal rehearsal ...
    No argument there!

  37. #36

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    Ok. The guitar is a difficult instrument to master. It requires a nerdy obsession with unlocking its secrets. You can be a badass at music and still not have a clue how to play guitar well on a technical/command of the instrument level, as in as a reading instrument etc. (And the opposite case too.)

    In fact such a musician might even question the value of learning its secrets when 90% of what people want from it is easy to play using a few basic shapes, picking patterns and if necessary alternate tunings.

    Look Jacob Collier is a high powered mutant, but even he fakes the guitar somewhat...

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    I love the lame defense of ignorance guitar-owners always revert to. It's even funnier on a "jazz" board.
    Dont be so hard on you’re self!

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I guess it's really no surprise that there are so many jokes about how dumb guitarists are. But given all the free knowledge and repertoire available nowadays,why does this still hold true?

    Beyond theory, repertoire always is weak, reading skills, harmony,etc.
    This is especially true of many non Jazz musicians, like modern Pop guitarists. They can hardly play anything above a major 7 or even know their fretboard notes.

    I also recognize just because one is good at harmony you must also juggle melody and rhythm equally to play well.
    Your post implies an implicit definition a la "no true musician". See No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

  40. #39
    So to be fair some good points of conversation here! I'm not saying one needs to read at a Pro Classical Musician level. But be able to sit in with say a working band that has charts.
    Being a great reader does t translate to being a great improvised either.But it gives you access to great solo and choral transcriptions to understand.

    As far as newer music and examples above. This seems more like what moves you personally. I'm moved by simple music as well. James, Brown,Bill Withers, Muddy Waters, Hank Williams,etc.....
    But it's not written with a deeper understanding of harmony. And that component brings another dimension to the music.

    I can appreciate sophisticated as well as simple composition.Why would you only eat one type of food?
    On the other hand for me personally I detest computer or loop composition type of music. It lacks originality, musical talent, and SOUL!
    No doubt I'll get flamed for it, but I'm old and proud of it,lol!

  41. #40

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    I think everyone should learn to read music, play by ear, improvise and compose.

    Why?

    cos it’s fun.

    How about that?

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So to be fair some good points of conversation here! I'm not saying one needs to read at a Pro Classical Musician level. But be able to sit in with say a working band that has charts.
    Being a great reader does t translate to being a great improvised either.But it gives you access to great solo and choral transcriptions to understand!
    Well by his own admission, Holdsworth couldn’t read, or write charts of his tunes for his band mates, but that didn’t stop him from working with arguably some of the greatest musicians on the planet. I think you acquire the skills you need for the type of musician you want to be. If you want to be in a top 40 band the priority would probably be to memorise a bunch of tunes really quickly. For original music it might be crafting parts out of the material presented. To be a bit of an all rounder where you would be striving to be as employable as possible you might need to research how to play stylistically appropriate for the situation you find you’re self in. unlike other professions which may be somewhat more linear, you may find your self working concurrently with many different skill sets at the same time, or not. You can have a bunch of skills together and make a decent enough living as a jobbing faceless sideman, without any body recognizing you as a unique individual original stylist.
    Frank Gambale told a great story about his time with Chick Corea. Some one asked Chick about the modes of melodic minor. He replied he didn’t know them. would you think any less of Chick for this or somehow think he’s ignorant? He hears them and can play them, he doesn’t need to know what their called.
    I think with all the graduates being pumped out from schools now and the rapidly shrinking availability of employment, you’ll probably find that anyone serious about making a living from music has the necessary skills together for what they want to do, guitar players included.

  43. #42
    At least the comments on this forum seem to be of a higher understanding of music and thought as well,lol!
    As a Pro player for over 40 years I have no issue with amateur musicians. But I find it somewhat funny their point's of view when stating their opinions.
    Some are well thought out while many are really naive and based on personal preference.

    I state all this because being 63 years old and always making a living playing guitar gigs,studio,teaching,churches,etc. I'm always being forced to learn different styles and different genres of music.
    And while I don't care for a lot of it, I'm glad to have been forced to do so for a paycheck.

    It really has made me a MUCH Better musician and listener of music as well. Nothing like $$ to motivate one to do the job,lol!

  44. #43
    By the way both Chick Corea ,Frank Gambale and Alan Holdsworth could easily sit in with most musical situations and blend in at a minimum. Can't say that for less skilled musicians. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make.

    I saw Joe Satriani on YouTube sit in with Les Paul but was confounded by his lack of musical skill sets?
    And no doubt he's a superior guitarist, he was like a fish out of water. Depended on his processed tone and pentatonic scales and 12 bar blues form .
    On the other hand I saw Kenny Rogers sit in with Doc Severensen and the Tonight show band on upright bass and play Misty!

    Granted these are 2 different musicians and styles for sure, but I for one would rather be able to understand and perform with many styles and different musicians. Than be limited to one thing a la Eddie Van Halen i.e.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    By the way both Chick Corea ,Frank Gambale and Alan Holdsworth could easily sit in with most musical situations and blend in at a minimum. Can't say that for less skilled musicians. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make.

    I saw Joe Satriani on YouTube sit in with Les Paul but was confounded by his lack of musical skill sets?
    And no doubt he's a superior guitarist, he was like a fish out of water. Depended on his processed tone and pentatonic scales and 12 bar blues form .
    On the other hand I saw Kenny Rogers sit in with Doc Severensen and the Tonight show band on upright bass and play Misty!

    Granted these are 2 different musicians and styles for sure, but I for one would rather be able to understand and perform with many styles and different musicians. Than be limited to one thing a la Eddie Van Halen i.e.
    i don’t think that’s true at all.

    to imagine Corea, Holdsworth or Gambale (maybe more so him) to be equivalent to session players is not fair on anybody. They have their thing. It’s really not about versatility for those guys. It’s about their voice within jazz etc.

    And Satriani has his thing. He studied with Tristano and Billy Bauer way back but it’s probably a little unfair to expect him to retain his jazz chops....

    fuckin hell people don’t half get on their high horse sometimes.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    At least the comments on this forum seem to be of a higher understanding of music and thought as well,lol!
    As a Pro player for over 40 years I have no issue with amateur musicians!
    Er, huh?
    seems that everyone that took the time to respond to you on this thread is or has been a working pro!

  47. #46
    I was commenting about another forum that I'm part of. Definitely higher understanding of music on this forum is what I was trying to say.

    John McGlaughlin once said in an interview I don't play Indian Music per say. But I understand the rules that govern their music. So I can have a musical conversation with them. That is the point of any language,isn't it?

  48. #47

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    I’d love to play a wider cross section of music, but people hire me to do the jazz thing.

    which is kind of cool but it pays peanuts haha

    And then every few years someone foolishly calls me to do a soul funk gig and I have to learn all the tunes in three days and I don’t get the call again.

    So, I’m ok with having a niche :-)

    My own projects tend to be pretty eclectic...

  49. #48

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    The guitar began its existence as a folk instrument somewhere between the 15th and 16th centuries in Malaga, Spain. Players were almost always unschooled in the Classical tradition. Once introduced, it became popular throughout Europe since it was easy to play on a rudimentary level. Little has changed over the years for most guitar "bangers" whether they are Rockers, C&W, Folk, or R&B. Today, many guitarists are schooled musicians(Classical and Jazz) and they have elevated the instrument to a very high level of performance. However, it doesn't mean that formal education is the only pathway to competence but, for most, it will get you there faster. Many early Jazz guitarists were "ear musicians" and played the repertoire of those times well. But today, Jazz has become a very sophisticated art form (as witnessed by the theoretical discussions on this forum) and many of the younger players today are well-schooled musicians. In life, knowledge is power. Music is no exception. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Last edited by Marinero; 04-09-2020 at 09:44 AM. Reason: deletion

  50. #49
    Im self educated musically or learned on the job as well. I never did well in school settings,and preferred to learn on my own. I also found that other guitarists were generally not that a great source of knowledge.

    I actually learned way more from other musicians bassists,horn players,pianists.
    They seem to understand the elements of music in a broader context.
    I was once seriously embarrassed by a trombone player who knew the notes of my fretboard better than I did,lol!

    The motto when I was growing up "Those who can play,gig. And those who can't teach." There does seem to be a lot of truth in that saying. Although this was in an era were gigging actually offered a way to make a living.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Im self educated musically or learned on the job as well. I never did well in school settings,and preferred to learn on my own. I also found that other guitarists were generally not that a great source of knowledge.

    I actually learned way more from other musicians bassists,horn players,pianists.
    They seem to understand the elements of music in a broader context.
    I was once seriously embarrassed by a trombone player who knew the notes of my fretboard better than I did,lol!

    The motto when I was growing up "Those who can play,gig. And those who can't teach." There does seem to be a lot of truth in that saying. Although this was in an era were gigging actually offered a way to make a living.
    Now where’s my gif of Barry Harris glaring balefully over his glasses?