The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    or that they are the same chord with different bass notes for that matter....
    ...and that's up to the ignorant bass player....

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    A lot of players in Nashville use the "Nashville Number System" which is a way of charting chord changes without writing (or being able to read) standard notation.

    Here is one example of it. Knowing this, you can write the changes of a tune with numbers (1, 2, 3; not I ii iii) and it makes transposing on the fly easy (which is crucial if one backs singers, as different ones will choose different keys) Of course, one can do this WITHOUT knowing the NNS, but that's how it evolved. I think it was a singer in the Jordanaires (who backed Elvis, among others) who came up with it decades ago.
    Attachment 70663

    Here's an article that also covers the most common symbols used and a photo of how an actual chart looks when written in this style.
    Crunching The Nashville Number System - Guitars - Harmony Central
    I’ve done this with band leaders that do it with hand gestures. Fingers on a hand - up for major, down for minor.

    Keys can be indicated in a similar way - two up for d, three down for Eb and so on

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Resentment for others who can't play their instrument. Maybe so, but more towards the acceptance of such mediocrity being praised and passing for actual music rather than a McDonald's Cheesburger.

    Popularity is just that, not music or art or real talent. When people who dumbed down the instrument as well as the Music become the bar we hold high,we are in serious trouble !
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!
    Time for a listen-to-some-dumbasses break, folks. Bear with me while I serve up some talentless hacks:







    I wonder when those guys will finally take some lessons and stop making that racket? Buncha losers. Hope they kept their day jobs.

  5. #79
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.

  6. #80

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    Sad, but true statement. There was no Charlie Parker (though Charlie Christian came quite close), no Coltrane, no Miles, no McCoy, no Wayne Shorter or Herbie Hancock.

    it took all these years to have people like the underrated George Benson (take 5!), Metheny, Abercrombie, McLaughlin and Scofield to open up to the learnings of Miles, Joe Henderson...

    But now we have Steve Cardenas, Kevin Eubanks, Adam Rogers, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg....

    these guys are near on the level of Mark Turner, Steve Coleman.

    but still, where is our Keith Jarrett? Our Herbie Hancock? our Jan Garbarek?

    must be because the guitar is harder than we think...
    Last edited by Djang; 04-11-2020 at 12:09 PM.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.
    Ok, I see you point.

    But look, if you mentioned Slash, these kind of guys need to be viewed more as composers than anything else. How many people came up with something like Sweet Chile O' Mine riff? It's a brilliant work, even if that's all he will be remembered for, but it's something.

    I know plenty of high level guitarists who giggin in NYC and they have amazing skills, can read music like there is no tomorrow, and know every standard in the world, but in the end of the day they don't really offer anything original in music. They sure get respect as musicians but secretly everyone wish they came up with something like Sweet Chile O MIne, or Back In Black, or Smoke On Water. When you pick up an electric guitar, thats the first thing you might want to play anyway.

    So in the words of the great Bon Scott ' You say that you want respect
    Honey for what?'

  8. #82
    I guess I've become like old Jazz Guys like Barney Kessel's comment on EVH. But I Actually like EVH as a rock player. Even though I've complained about Satriani sitting in with Les Paul and Iridium band.
    I feel the difference was Satch knows theory and still couldn't apply it.

    For me Slash is a Brand rather than an innovator. Not impressed with is playing or tone. But I could say the same for Prince as a player as well. Just personal taste, but find this type of playing very narccistic and not musical at all.
    Again just my viewpoint, not anything else.

    And probably the same in every generation. But with visual technologies seeming so important. This seems to be the primary factor rather than actual musical talent.

  9. #83

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    Yeah but Prince was a musical genius who happened to pay decent rock guitar.

    Slash is .... well, never a fan particularly. G’n’R always seemed a bit second hand. And it was only a couple of years before Nirvana broke massive and made them look like an .... LA Metal band?

    anyway.... people seem to like them.

  10. #84

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    I have read most of the replies here and based only on my personal experience with my friends, that are all amateur (non-professional) guitar players like myself, the knowledge of chords and associated harmony is where rock \ blues players are lacking.

    When a song calls for an chord other than a major, minor or Dominant 7 triad most of my friends look to me. (most also know minor 7th chord voicing but not major 7th ones and bar chord 6 and 9 voicings).

    E.g. Playing Honey Pie by Paul McCartney; the "B" section has a C minor 7b5 chord. Decades ago I used to start in on some theory ("you know how to play this minor 7th, well this is the 5th, just move it down one fret", but after being told "hey,, just show me the freaking chord!". I stopped doing this. My friends are good musician so they can quickly memorize that chord sharp but typically only for that song. Thus if there is another song with a minor 7b5, but NOT in C, I have to remind them of the other song and that the voicing I showed them was root based (i.e. just move it down to this fret).

    The other area was with songwriting. One guy is a good folk type guitar player and singer (nice voice, good timing). We did a duo act (I just played guitar). He had written a lot of songs but in most cases only the "A" section; I.e. he struggles with creating a bridge. Well I just used standard harmonic practices I had seen used in other songs; E.g. start the bridge on the 4th chord in the major harmonic progression, or the relative minor, circle of 5ths etc... We created some niffy folk songs (he was great at creating cool lyrics, often on the fly). He was more talented in many areas than I was, but my musical knowledge benefited his overall act.

  11. #85
    Prince is always given that title Musical Genius! I respectfully disagree with that asesment. I think he was a very talented copy cat of many styles of music and fashion. But a genius at marketing himself with the advent of MTV.

    I rarely find any of his compositions that extraordinary in a musical harmonic co text. But I do think Doves Cry and Diamonds and Pearls are excellent Pop tunes.
    Stevie Wonder on the other hand deserves the Genius tittle in my book.
    Mayne because piano is his primary instrument. Where as for Prince it was guitar as well as lack of Jazz or Classical composition understanding.

    I say piano because guitarists especially of non Jazz background don't often venture above the 7th degree of any scale sans dom7#9

  12. #86

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    Harmony is overrated sometimes

  13. #87

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    Obviously music with more extensions is de facto better

    (No)

  14. #88

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    I guess the frustrating part is that you can spend multiple lifetimes in the shed, master every bit of theory and technique, and still not sound very good.

    Even worse, the converse is also true. Which is that you can sound good without doing almost any of that -- except develop your ear, have good time and be able to put what's in your mind onto the guitar.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I guess the frustrating part is that you can spend multiple lifetimes in the shed, master every bit of theory and technique, and still not sound very good.

    Even worse, the converse is also true. Which is that you can sound good without doing almost any of that -- except develop your ear, have good time and be able to put what's in your mind onto the guitar.
    Uhuh.

    Look, I wish I'd known the importance of that a bit earlier. I work on my ear a lot - the way I work on it tends to be - learning songs by ear, and listening to music. Also copping the odd lick I like. Nothing fancy. And it works, funnily enough, just as it has for generations of players. I really think that's the engine of the work.

    Theory is... and remains.... a corpus of information that may have value to the practical musician. I get pigeonholed a bit as a theorist sometimes, but actually I don't think I am interested in theory at all. I have no use for abstract information. Everything I'm interested in is tools to get the job done. Theory can expand the usefulness of what you have learned - even something as basic as 'this is a moveable shape for a m7b5 chord', to more specific jazz bits of info like 'what works on Am works on D7' and so on.

    Older musicians had rules of thumb and tricks of the trade they used...

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I have read most of the replies here and based only on my personal experience with my friends, that are all amateur (non-professional) guitar players like myself, the knowledge of chords and associated harmony is where rock \ blues players are lacking.

    When a song calls for an chord other than a major, minor or Dominant 7 triad most of my friends look to me. (most also know minor 7th chord voicing but not major 7th ones and bar chord 6 and 9 voicings).

    E.g. Playing Honey Pie by Paul McCartney; the "B" section has a C minor 7b5 chord. Decades ago I used to start in on some theory ("you know how to play this minor 7th, well this is the 5th, just move it down one fret", but after being told "hey,, just show me the freaking chord!". I stopped doing this. My friends are good musician so they can quickly memorize that chord sharp but typically only for that song. Thus if there is another song with a minor 7b5, but NOT in C, I have to remind them of the other song and that the voicing I showed them was root based (i.e. just move it down to this fret).

    The other area was with songwriting. One guy is a good folk type guitar player and singer (nice voice, good timing). We did a duo act (I just played guitar). He had written a lot of songs but in most cases only the "A" section; I.e. he struggles with creating a bridge. Well I just used standard harmonic practices I had seen used in other songs; E.g. start the bridge on the 4th chord in the major harmonic progression, or the relative minor, circle of 5ths etc... We created some niffy folk songs (he was great at creating cool lyrics, often on the fly). He was more talented in many areas than I was, but my musical knowledge benefited his overall act.
    That's the beautiful thing, no? We all try to be all conquering individuals, capable at everything, but the truth is we all have different strengths, and the collaborative side of music is where the magic happens (for me.)

    Even in jazz... and jazz edu seems designed to make omni-competent versatile players, but nonetheless, some people make great MD's, great stunt soloists, great accompanists for singers and so on and so forth.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.
    Bob Dylan's work is typically simple, but I'd call it real music. I get your point about guys who flog the pentatonic minor into submission, but I think that amongst admired guitarists of all genres there's usually a lot of music education that may or may not be flaunted. And I also think that some of the most moving music I've heard is pretty simple, too.

    Thanks for the discussion, it's making me think and that's always appreciated. Sorry for getting a little snarky earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I guess I've become like old Jazz Guys like Barney Kessel's comment on EVH. But I Actually like EVH as a rock player. Even though I've complained about Satriani sitting in with Les Paul and Iridium band. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I feel the difference was Satch knows theory and still couldn't apply it.
    I listened to part of that clip and yeah, he sounds very tentative. I imagine it's probably because he doesn't practice jazz regularly. It's one thing to have the knowledge, and another thing altogether to apply it on the fly in an improv. I know I have to 'shed before approaching genres and styles that aren't firmly in my wheelhouse.

  18. #92

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    I should soften a little, too. I have played in many rock bands and was always the one they asked about things - countless rehearsals where someone was playing a wrong chord, bass line, etc. and just weren't hearing it, like songs where the bass was supposed to pedal under changing chords, but instead tried to move with the chords, or some "hard to hear" chords unfamiliar to the pianist. Because of the characteristic simplicity of most popular rock songs, it is these specific details that make them sound right, and audiences who know nothing about music but know the songs will hear departures easily.

    I'll add that "professional studio work" is thrown around like some kind of guitar super credential, implying great knowledge and experience of this and that. Those of us who have done it know that what is most valued is patience and focus. The majority of the time is waiting to play, waiting on pizza delivery, waiting on engineering stuff. The majority of the work requires the ability to strum perfectly fingered cowboy chords, in perfect tuning, perfect rhythm, perfect tone and balance, making perfect chord changes, and maintaining absolute focus for the duration. There are great and gifted guitarists that simply can't do that. It's nice when you get to do more.

  19. #93

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    This thread reminds me of an experience decades back.

    My girlfriend won a radio contest and we got to go to the station's Christmas party in NYC. It was the station with Allison Steel, Jonathan Schwartz, Zacherle (sp?) and Roscoe.

    They had a singer songwriter with multiple AM hits as the entertainment. She played her tunes, which were great pop songs. Then ran out of tunes and people wanted to sing. She couldn't play any other tune. Not even the simplest and most popular Beatles songs.

    Since I'm being negative, I won't name her here, but you older folks would know her songs. She was able to learn a couple of cowboy chords and write and perform multiple hits. I'd say she was able to communicate feeling at a high level and could do it with minimal tools.

    I've mentioned before hearing one of my teachers sound great playing a single D note against a Bbmaj7. Or Jimmy Bruno sounding great playing the chord tones of a maj7 chord against that maj7 chord, or only notes of a C scale against a ii V I.

    If you can't do that, maybe there's a limited chance that knowing more technique is going to help.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Make it micro-tonal as well and now we're talking .. But only if you syncopate.
    thats because Jacob Collier is the best music.

    (no)

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This thread reminds me of an experience decades back.

    My girlfriend won a radio contest and we got to go to the station's Christmas party in NYC. It was the station with Allison Steel, Jonathan Schwartz, Zacherle (sp?) and Roscoe.

    .
    wnew fm...102.7

    what days!


    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 04-11-2020 at 08:53 PM.

  22. #96
    Well theory is just information written down to explain harmony,etc. How one uses it is the important factor. Wes Montgomery is a great example of a non reader who uses it to its full potential imo.
    John McGlaughlin is absolutely another great example. There are very knowledgeable musicians who Swing like a Turd in a Punch Bowl! And that holds true of all styles.

    Knowledgeable guitarists just seem to have more ways to that old saying,LOL !

  23. #97

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    You certainly got that right about vocalists!

  24. #98

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    Jack Pearson, 'nuff said


  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    There are very knowledgeable musicians who Swing like a Turd in a Punch Bowl
    WT the Actual F jads! I like swinging like a bored house-wife a lot better. But that's just me I guess.

  26. #100

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    It’s a striking image