The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    On the other hand, a friend of mine moved to Nashville a long time ago. He thought he might find a slot as a studio guitarist. So, he was in a studio checking things out and met a regular. I don't know who it was. My friend asked if he knew All The Things You Are. The guy said he thought so and proceeded to play a solo version of it with melody, chords, and walking bass all at the same time. My friend became a successful music journalist instead. I'm willing to bet that the studio guy couldn't read standard music notation very well if at all.
    A lot of players in Nashville use the "Nashville Number System" which is a way of charting chord changes without writing (or being able to read) standard notation.

    Here is one example of it. Knowing this, you can write the changes of a tune with numbers (1, 2, 3; not I ii iii) and it makes transposing on the fly easy (which is crucial if one backs singers, as different ones will choose different keys) Of course, one can do this WITHOUT knowing the NNS, but that's how it evolved. I think it was a singer in the Jordanaires (who backed Elvis, among others) who came up with it decades ago.
    Guitarists the Most Ignorant?-nns-chart-760x608-png

    Here's an article that also covers the most common symbols used and a photo of how an actual chart looks when written in this style.
    Crunching The Nashville Number System - Guitars - Harmony Central

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    It's almost as entertaining as knee-jerk condescension, wouldn't you agree?
    Hardly knee-jerk, actually very well-researched. Thanks for the laugh.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzism
    Dont be so hard on you’re self!
    Do you mean "yourself"?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    The guitar began its existence as a folk instrument somewhere between the 15th and 16th centuries in Malaga, Spain. Players were almost always unschooled in the Classical tradition. Once introduced, it became popular throughout Europe since it was easy to play on a rudimentary level. Little has changed over the years for most guitar "bangers" whether they are Rockers, C&W, Folk, or R&B. Today, many guitarists are schooled musicians(Classical and Jazz) and they have elevated the instrument to a very high level of performance. However, it doesn't mean that formal education is the only pathway to competence but, for most, it will get you there faster. Many early Jazz guitarists were "ear musicians" and played the repertoire of those times well. But today, Jazz has become a very sophisticated art form (as witnessed by the theoretical discussions on this forum) and many of the younger players today are well-schooled musicians. In life, knowledge is power. Music is no exception. Good playing . . . Marinero
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.

  6. #55
    I started this thread as I said earlier after seeing so many rock guitarists sitting in with Les Paul and his Iridium band on YouTube. I was dismayed that with exception of 2 players Steve Howe and Jeff Healy perhaps. They couldn't play anything with Les and his band except a very basic 12bar Chicago style blues.

    I used to play locally in a band here in Mpls that was a well know Monday night gig that had many famous Rock musicians stop by and sit in as well. Again I was floored how limited their repertoire and musical knowledge forced this same 12 bar type of scenario.
    Eric Gayles was one of the few along with a Sacred Steel pedal steel player were incredible! And in fairness Hiram Bullock got it as well. But most guitarists and including other types of musicians couldn't even follow the form of a longer blues form. "Baby I Love You" Aretha Franklin

    And when I hear people praising these musicians on forums and claiming what great musicians they are, I find this funny.
    It seems that it's okay that as guitarists we're given a free pass so long as we play with famous people,LOL!
    I can't tell you how many times I got my ass handed to me by older schooled, usually Jazz musicians. I went back and learned i.e. "Just Freinds" with correct changes and in different keys.

    I use that as just one example of many, that made me a MUCH Better musician and listener of others.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Hardly knee-jerk, actually very well-researched.
    I'll take your word for it. You're welcome for the laugh, but I'm probably not responsible for it.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I started this thread as I said earlier after seeing so many rock guitarists sitting in with Les Paul and his Iridium band on YouTube. I was dismayed that with exception of 2 players Steve Howe and Jeff Healy perhaps. They couldn't play anything with Les and his band except a very basic 12bar Chicago style blues.

    I used to play locally in a band here in Mpls that was a well know Monday night gig that had many famous Rock musicians stop by and sit in as well. Again I was floored how limited their repertoire and musical knowledge forced this same 12 bar type of scenario.
    Eric Gayles was one of the few along with a Sacred Steel pedal steel player were incredible! And in fairness Hiram Bullock got it as well. But most guitarists and including other types of musicians couldn't even follow the form of a longer blues form. "Baby I Love You" Aretha Franklin

    And when I hear people praising these musicians on forums and claiming what great musicians they are, I find this funny.
    It seems that it's okay that as guitarists we're given a free pass so long as we play with famous people,LOL!
    I can't tell you how many times I got my ass handed to me by older schooled, usually Jazz musicians. I went back and learned i.e. "Just Freinds" with correct changes and in different keys.

    I use that as just one example of many, that made me a MUCH Better musician and listener of others.
    Sounds like it’s about you really.

    its great that you have so many skills and a wide repertoire.

    but the whole Les Paul circus thing was about famous rock players. You don’t have to know standards to be a great rock player. But yes I do often think rock players should spend more time learning songs - not standards necessarily, just tunes, by ear.

    I mean I don’t know a load of Irish trad tunes and my knowledge of soul funk pop tunes is pretty limited. Why? I don’t do those gigs. If I did I would probably learn them.

    i tell you one rock player who would deal with the situation well; Pail Gilbert.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Do you mean "yourself"?
    I’m good pal, thx for asking!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.

    Hi, Ron,
    Classical Music is roughly defined as "Classical music is a very general term which normally refers to the standard music of countries in the Western world. It is music that has been composed by musicians who are trained in the art of writing music (composing) and written down in music notation so that other musicians can play it." There are far too many sources to cite but here's one of many: Search Results

    Web results


    The 15th-century classical music composers (timeline, top 10...)
    soclassiq.com › The_15th-century_classical_music_composers ›

    I don't think this needs any further discussion on my part. Perhaps were just quibbling about conceptualism. Good playing . . . Marinero


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i tell you one rock player who would deal with the situation well; Pail Gilbert.
    Another, I think, would be Alex Skolnick. Played thrash, studied jazz.

  12. #61

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    Pail Gilbert - hang on - that's Buckethead's real identity!

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    Another, I think, would be Alex Skolnick. Played thrash, studied jazz.
    Sure. Skolnick has put out some jazz albums.

    Timmons would be on it as well.

  14. #63
    I guess perhaps it is about me,or at least what I've learned about the Music languages. But isn't that the point to communicate with others and interact with them?
    That's my point in starting this thread. To continue to be viable as a working musician one needs to constantly reinvent. I like John McGlaughlins outlook in music as well as Miles Davis. They always kept learning and moving forward.

    Fine to learn one style, but why not take the best of many styles? Jimi Hendrix, Jaco, John Coltrane, even Ray Charles, Sting all take this approach as well.
    I may not be a Jazz musician as my first language, but I certainly have learned enough repertoire and understanding of the harmony, grooves,etc. to sit in with just about any situation. And as in any style I know how not play,lol!

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sure. Skolnick has put out some jazz albums.

    Timmons would be on it as well.
    I think Vernon Reid would've acquitted himself well, too.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.
    I hope I'm not echoing anyone else's post or stepping on anyone's toes but I think you guys, ronjazz and marinero hit the nail on the head. My wife takes piano lessons at a local music shop where they mostly teach band instruments, piano, violin, cello, etc. I think you get the idea. Most of those who teach band instruments from what I can hear, teach by an age old structured, traditional method . Like in trumpet for example, you learn to read, you learn all your scales, arpegios, tongue techniquer and you develop your lip according to a long traditional method. I can almost go to any horn teacher there and elsewhere and find pretty much the same method. When it comes to guitar lessons, there is no traditional guitar method except in classsical or Flamenco and most people don't want to go that route. From what I see, you hear "this is an E chord. Put your fingers here. This is a G chord. Put your fingers there. Here's how you play Stairway." I taught for a short while, trying to go old school (I couldn't take it after a while) and the first thing my students got was Mel Bay Book #1 with the big old D'A on it. I taught them how to read music and rhythm patterns. I taught them what chords were made of, inversions and taught them how to learn a song with sheet music and chord charts. When I taught adults, it was horrible. They didn't want to start at the basic. They wanted to learn the chords and songs and be able to wail in a month or two. Except for one guitar teacher who has several degrees in music, they teach without reading and without understanding the guts of music. They know a handful of chords and that's about it. Now I'm no musical genius and I'm not saying I was great teacher or even a great player, but I started with what I thought were fundamentals and worked from there. I think the point is, most players don't start with the real fundamentals until much later. That's what happened with me. When I finally learned them, I tried to teach them. I ran into a huge roadblock. Thanks for letting me rant. I hope I didn't offend anyone. If I did, I'm sorry.

  17. #66

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    Carl Verheyen, Rit, Sid McGinnis, Dean Parks (or really, most of the Dan guitarists) ... these are guys who can read at least competent and play energetically at the same time.

    Sure, there's a lot of uneducated guitarists. My jazz teach told me once that the beauty of guitar is that it's easy to learn and impossible to master, and I agree with him. That's not to say there aren't many guitarists who have put in the time on instrument and can throw down on what you put on the stand in front of them. It also means that there are a lot of guitarists who couldn't tell a flat-nine from a flapjack on sheet.

    I also think there are different types of intelligence. An orchestral violinist may be able to read like the dickens but not have a grasp of how to improv over changes. My mom, a great pianist, was that way. She couldn't boogie-woogie to save her life (she had zero sense of the stride groove required), but I could bring home sheet and have her play it through the first time with no issues. I labor through reading and never had any great ability to sight-read even when I was practicing it hard. I don't work off sheet any more, and would probably be considered a hack by most everyone here.

    I think it's much more useful to simply listen to good music and figure out what those good musicians are doing. Whether we do it through theory or ear or feel isn't really the point, is it? I think the point is that as musicians we play compelling music, rather than indulge in invidious comparisons. Of course, that may be a self-serving point.

  18. #67

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    Some disappointed guitar teachers around here it seems. But people learn music for different reasons. Some want to just jam with friends or play a few songs. The guitar is different from horns and piano - you can play chords and melody and sing and it’s portable. Try bringing your trumpet to a campfire to sing and play some Johnny Cash songs. Or a piano. Oh... and isn’t standard notation actually tablature for piano? And what’s with those horn players anyway, they can’t easily play in E or A so everyone else has to play in less comfortable keys... and the world is full of wind players who quit because the instrument is useless except in an ensemble where you need those music reading skills. The guitar is simply more fun, I bet there is a survival bias...

    The guitar players who want to develop pro skills go to Berklee or some such and I bet they do just fine in ensembles with sheet music.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Some disappointed guitar teachers around here it seems. But people learn music for different reasons. Some want to just jam with friends or play a few songs. The guitar is different from horns and piano - you can play chords and melody and sing and it’s portable. Try bringing your trumpet to a campfire to sing and play some Johnny Cash songs. Or a piano. Oh... and isn’t standard notation actually tablature for piano? And what’s with those horn players anyway, they can’t easily play in E or A so everyone else has to play in less comfortable keys... and the world is full of wind players who quit because the instrument is useless except in an ensemble where you need those music reading skills. The guitar is simply more fun, I bet there is a survival bias...

    The guitar players who want to develop pro skills go to Berklee or some such and I bet they do just fine in ensembles with sheet music.
    .

    You bring up some very good points. I taught much more as a hobby than I did for a living. What I tried to do when I taught was exactly like you describe. I didn't want to train working musicians, I was teaching kids and adults who wanted to play as a hobby, i.e. play chords and melodies and sing around the campfire, the fraternity house or who just wanted to entertain themselves for a while. My end point was not a trained musician but someone who could pick up a book of songs, look through it, learn the melody, check the chord diagrams and the chords that go along with it without me having to teach them how to play every single song. I myself started by picking up a book of Beatle songs, looking at the chords, figuring out where to put the fingers, playing the melody to see what it sounded like and then learn the words so I could sing at a party and pick up girls. I had an older adult, a practicing dentist like myself as a student once who said he had classical guitar lessons for 7 years and he didn't know how to play songs. All he wanted to do was play songs like You Are My Sunshine. With 7 years of classical lessons under his belt, he should have easily got a book and figured it out. He quit after 1 lesson. Others just didn't want to put in the time to learn.

  20. #69
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.
    If they're making a living with their skills, what's the issue?They're obviously getting someone to pull out their wallet. That too is a skill. When I listen to a musician, their reading chops aren't my first concern. If they get me a tap in my toe and a dip in my hip, whether they can read or not isn't really relevant, is it?

  22. #71

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    Heck, I was only talking about the state of and traditions of how the guitar is being taught. I think this is like that old yarn where you ask what's the difference between a rock musician and a jazz musician. A rock musician plays 3 chords to 10,000 people. A jazz guitarist plays 10,000 chords to 3 people. If I really like the way somebody is playing, I don't care if they can read or tell the difference between a Dm7b5, a Bb9 and an Fm6.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.

    A better thread title might have been, "Anyone else learn what I did and come to develop a resentment for others who found success without learning those things?"

  24. #73
    Resentment for others who can't play their instrument. Maybe so, but more towards the acceptance of such mediocrity being praised and passing for actual music rather than a McDonald's Cheesburger.

    Popularity is just that, not music or art or real talent. When people who dumbed down the instrument as well as the Music become the bar we hold high,we are in serious trouble !
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!
    nahh, he just got frustrated that nobody ever gets his name right...

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    I don't care if they can read or tell the difference between a Dm7b5, a Bb9 and an Fm6.
    or that they are the same chord with different bass notes for that matter....