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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    There are very knowledgeable musicians who Swing like a Turd in a Punch Bowl
    WT the Actual F jads! I like swinging like a bored house-wife a lot better. But that's just me I guess.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    It’s a striking image

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I guess the frustrating part is that you can spend multiple lifetimes in the shed, master every bit of theory and technique, and still not sound very good.

    Even worse, the converse is also true. Which is that you can sound good without doing almost any of that -- except develop your ear, have good time and be able to put what's in your mind onto the guitar.
    Great post, RP!
    However, for many, its the journey and not necessarily the goal. And, for all of us who have found ourselves hopelessly addicted to this illusive Art, whether we become what we want or not musically, we keeping coming back because the feeling we have for even a few brief bars of expressiveness is worth the journey. Musicians, in my opinion, are born . . . not made. And, it has nothing to do with real competency but rather the need to speak through your instrument . . .whether good or bad. Good playing . . . Marinero

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    or that they are the same chord with different bass notes for that matter....
    Yeah. I know.

  6. #105
    I'm not sure Born is the prerequisite to being anything in life. That said having natural talent sure helps,as well as access to a family in the business already.
    I think it's perseverance and will that help the most.

    Also it used to be apprenticeship or learning on the job was most helpful. But with the lack of actual work nowadays and the barriers put up by technology. I use in ear monitors, recording individually, etc. These are great for saving money and the ability for one person to make a recording.As well as correcting mistakes
    Not so great at real interaction between actual musicians and groove!

    I think personally the best music made was by an actual band interacting with each other. Classical,Jazz,Rock,Blues,Country,etc. Sure multitrack recording has do e some great things like Sgt Peppers, Steely Dan, to mention a few. But the heart and soul is always the rhythm section!

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    Yeah. I know.
    do I get any points?

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    [...] Steely Dan, to mention a few. [...]
    The title track was recorded with the session band all together in the studio, though I don't know if Becker and Fagen layered any tracks later. But the rhythm section, guitars, Wooten on vibes, and Fagen on synth tracked together. I believe Shorter overdubbed his solo.

    From the Wiki:

    Three music stands were required to hold the charts for each player in the rhythm section;[19]) despite that complexity, the song took very little time to record, in contrast to the other songs on Aja, all of which were simpler.[c] Originally, they planned to rehearse for a day before beginning to record, but changed their mind after one performance. "Steve Gadd, being a fantastic drummer, is a fantastic sight reader and didn't really need to rehearse; neither did the rest of the band," Becker told Steely Dan historian Brian Sweet in 2007.[6] During a 2000 BBC online chat Fagen recalled discarding some other sections set aside for solos, "because nobody was comfortable with [them]."[6]

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    do I get any points?
    Yes. You've got your head on straight. I award your house, Griffindor 50 points.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    Yes. You've got your head on straight. I award your house, Griffindor 50 points.
    Splendid.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    But the heart and soul is always the rhythm section!


    What do you call somebody who hangs out with musicians?
    A guitarist.

  12. #111
    That would be me as I've so often found out!

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Great post, RP!
    However, for many, its the journey and not necessarily the goal. And, for all of us who have found ourselves hopelessly addicted to this illusive Art, whether we become what we want or not musically, we keeping coming back because the feeling we have for even a few brief bars of expressiveness is worth the journey. Musicians, in my opinion, are born . . . not made. And, it has nothing to do with real competency but rather the need to speak through your instrument . . .whether good or bad. Good playing . . . Marinero
    The Salieri Curse.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick

    What do you call somebody who hangs out with musicians?
    A guitarist.
    I call them capo users.

  15. #114
    Although Glenn Cambell used a capo way back when on a Righteous Brothers Song "You've Lost That Lovin Feeling " to great advantage. And Glenn was one of the most Natural Born great guitarists ever!

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I call them capo users.
    Literally the whole of Nashville: am I a joke to you?


  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Literally the whole of Nashville: am I a joke to you?

    Oh no, looks like I stepped into a pile of do-do. Big fan of Tony Rice and have all of the recordings he did with David Grisman. Not a fan of country music. I do understand that when singing, especially in a key one isn't use to, using a capo is often the way to go. Having to re-learn non 'cowboy' chords (open chords \ folk chords), and singing at the same time, isn't easy.

    Anyhow, I assume you're just teasing here; often I have found that those that use a capo, especially singers where singing is their primary musical interest, only know and can play those 'cowboy' chords. E.g. they only know 1 voicing for each chord and they have memorized those, and only those, for the songs they play. Thus they have to use a capo to change keys.

  18. #117
    I take the Capo User comment as many of the kids who play in worship bands and play acoustic guitar. I hate reading those charts. Especially original key Capo 5 etc. Learn to at least transpose!

  19. #118

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    Never got the capo hate. There is guitar outside of Jazz guitar, and many of the world's most respected players use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

  20. #119
    I think the dislike comes from lack of respect for actually taking the time to learn both music and your instrument itself. You rarely find these type of shortcuts on learning other instruments,at least professionally.

    I've always found myself being the guitarist, not as knowledgeable as many of the other band members. And again I'm talking with professional musicians who make a living doing this.

    I guess nowadays with loops and backing tracks,it almost becomes a moot point.
    But I definitely feel as guitarists we led the way to dumbing down music compositionally, harmonically, and in just learning our craft.
    I actually understand the older Jazz generation that use to say " Your music for the most part is crap!" Especially now professional orchestras are forced to play the music of my generations teenage Rock Bands, and usually not best bands,lol!

  21. #120

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    Let us not forget that Irving Berlin could only play in one key, F# (the pentatonic scale is all black keys). He had two transposing pianos – built with a virtual capo, if you will – that enabled key changes with a lever.

    He could not read music, but it didn't prove to be much of a liability...

  22. #121
    Irving Berlin was a composer first and foremost. I would use someone like George Gershwin who did both as a better example.

  23. #122

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    I'm a pop guitarist. I taped the charts to my forehead while I danced the stage like Jesse Johnson of the Time.

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What is great harmony?
    Bach. Gospel.

  25. #124
    Agreed on that and when Pop walked away from those templates, it really lost all of its musicality for me at least.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Agreed on that and when Pop walked away from those templates, it really lost all of its musicality for me at least.
    The Bach and Gospel?
    That and when Prince became a movie star. That was about the end of pop. It reached a zenith of sorts around 1983- 84.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 04-18-2020 at 04:23 AM.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Irving Berlin was a composer first and foremost. I would use someone like George Gershwin who did both as a better example.
    Irving Berlin was certainly one of the foremost composers of the USA, but he was not first a composer. He started out as a performer, singing and accompanying himself on piano (self-taught). I only made (light) reference to him in comparison to guitarists who use capos.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I think the dislike comes from lack of respect for actually taking the time to learn both music and your instrument itself. You rarely find these type of shortcuts on learning other instruments,at least professionally.

    I've always found myself being the guitarist, not as knowledgeable as many of the other band members. And again I'm talking with professional musicians who make a living doing this.

    I guess nowadays with loops and backing tracks,it almost becomes a moot point.
    But I definitely feel as guitarists we led the way to dumbing down music compositionally, harmonically, and in just learning our craft.
    I actually understand the older Jazz generation that use to say " Your music for the most part is crap!" Especially now professional orchestras are forced to play the music of my generations teenage Rock Bands, and usually not best bands,lol!
    Interesting as my experience is the complete opposite. I pay my bills (well before the apocalypse) by playing and teaching so I guess I am a professional of some sort.
    I never see guitar player in pro situations using a capo unless there is need for it. For my situations our job is usually to reproduce covers of many styles in an accurate an engaging fashion. If that requires a capo then so be it.
    Now on the other hand, I wish I had a dollar for every time I've been playing a tune in F#, Bb, Q squared or whatever, and I look over and the keyboard player is only playing the white keys. I think if they had acoustic instruments they would be out of business.

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by wengr
    Never got the capo hate. There is guitar outside of Jazz guitar, and many of the world's most respected players use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
    I don't understand 'capo hate' either, but I don't see any here. This thread is about lack of knowledge related to guitarist. If one uses a capo due to lack of knowledge comments about capo usage apply to this thread.

    Also can you provide an example that illustrates this: use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise.

    I really don't see how that is possible; E.g. a capo can be used to create a chord sound "that cannot be made otherwise".

    (PS: Reading above I assume any 'example' would be the open-string sound one gets on an acoustic',, I get that, I.e. to get as close to that folk sound one needs to play those folk open string voicings, this is especially true for cover-bands).

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I don't understand 'capo hate' either, but I don't see any here. This thread is about lack of knowledge related to guitarist. If one uses a capo due to lack of knowledge comments about capo usage apply to this thread.

    Also can you provide an example that illustrates this: use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise.

    I really don't see how that is possible; E.g. a capo can be used to create a chord sound "that cannot be made otherwise".

    (PS: Reading above I assume any 'example' would be the open-string sound one gets on an acoustic',, I get that, I.e. to get as close to that folk sound one needs to play those folk open string voicings, this is especially true for cover-bands).
    I don't understand the question.

    Here Comes the Sun is not the same song without a capo. Does that count? No idea.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don't understand the question.

    Here Comes the Sun is not the same song without a capo. Does that count? No idea.
    Yea, that would be an on-target example related to the other person's comment of: "use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise".

    I still find 'cannot be made otherwise' slightly over-the-top, because of course the music could be made, but it wouldn't be 'the same' (so for me your use of 'not the same song', is more descriptive).

    Related to 'the same'; This is why I mentioned cover-bands. Sounding 'the same' is really important and sometimes your mates will require one to use a capo. "Stop playing those dang movable chords, and use that capo, so you sound like the album!".

  32. #131

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    Well, it DOES make a difference.

    The bluegrass players wouldn't sound the same if they were using moveable shapes.

    Depends how you parameterise music. Are parameters such as tone colour and so on less important than harmony and melody? Maybe equally important in some forms of music.

  33. #132
    I appreciate all the thoughtful comments on all sides of this conversation.Thanks!

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I don't understand 'capo hate' either, but I don't see any here. This thread is about lack of knowledge related to guitarist. If one uses a capo due to lack of knowledge comments about capo usage apply to this thread.

    Also can you provide an example that illustrates this: use a capo to create music that cannot be made otherwise.

    I really don't see how that is possible; E.g. a capo can be used to create a chord sound "that cannot be made otherwise".

    (PS: Reading above I assume any 'example' would be the open-string sound one gets on an acoustic',, I get that, I.e. to get as close to that folk sound one needs to play those folk open string voicings, this is especially true for cover-bands).
    Imo, music is not just chord shapes. It's a lot more than that. Tone plays a huge role. Tone production is a whole world of study for string and wind players, and as a guitar and bass player it is for me as well.
    I play the guitar in a variety of tunings and for a variety of reasons.
    Many of which I could assume the anti capo crowd would also consider "cheating" as well, but that is of no concern to me.
    For example, I use C9 a good bit. Low to high CGCGCD. You may know it as the Zep Rain Song tuning. I like low tunings such as this, and I really like them when we capo back up and put the guitar back in a register closer to standard.
    Why? Because it sounds good to me. The sound of a short scale loose string can be quite different to the sound of a longer very taught string. Ymmv but I find it a compelling sound and good tool to have for certain tunes. It's another color and tha's a plus imo.
    Here is cgcgcd capoed at 5 iirc.
    I wish you could hear it in person.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don't understand the question.

    Here Comes the Sun is not the same song without a capo. Does that count? No idea.
    Now we are talking about articulation. To me articulation is huge. Yes, players can show us their caged shape versions of the cowboy chords,and some do it really well, but it's never going to be the same.
    That record sold pretty well. I wonder if it would have sold better if it was capo free?

    But then there are plenty of tunes far less basic then Here Comes the Sun. And again would can spend year trying to find hand contortions that might allow you to kind sorta get that sound - But imo that's like spinning plates on sticks. Difficult. Takes years of effort, and in the end very few people give a shit.

  36. #135
    The thing I keep trying to impart in this thread is not the tools that help you make music capo,tunings ,etc. It's that music is a lifelong study or vocation that requires discipline wether it be the Blues, Jazz,Classical,Folk,Rock,etc.

    I always liken this to other professions wether sports,arts,medicine, etc.Were competence and time in the saddle makes a huge difference even if your born naturally talented.

    When it becomes a loop that any non playing musician or barely competent one. Then it becomes dumbed down and thought of as a free pop machine (pun intended ) And the real musicians in every generate of music are harmed as well as the actual music itself,imo.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by wengr
    Imo, music is not just chord shapes. It's a lot more than that. Tone plays a huge role. Tone production is a whole world of study for string and wind players, and as a guitar and bass player it is for me as well.
    I play the guitar in a variety of tunings and for a variety of reasons.
    Many of which I could assume the anti capo crowd would also consider "cheating" as well, but that is of no concern to me.
    For example, I use C9 a good bit. Low to high CGCGCD. You may know it as the Zep Rain Song tuning. I like low tunings such as this, and I really like them when we capo back up and put the guitar back in a register closer to standard.
    Why? Because it sounds good to me. The sound of a short scale loose string can be quite different to the sound of a longer very taught string. Ymmv but I find it a compelling sound and good tool to have for certain tunes. It's another color and tha's a plus imo.
    Here is cgcgcd capoed at 5 iirc.
    I wish you could hear it in person.
    Why do you keep bringing up the fictional "anti capo crowd"? Anyhow, I agree with your point and if you read closely you can see that I did, TWICE. I'm really not interested in a lecture from someone so defensive.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Why do you keep bringing up the fictional "anti capo crowd"? Anyhow, I agree with your point and if you read closely you can see that I did, TWICE. I'm really not interested in a lecture from someone so defensive.
    It's not a lecture. It's a response to YOUR request.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I call them capo users.
    I'll go along with that. The only time a capo is justified is if you need a song in a different key for a singer and you're trying to get that sound that results from open string chords like you're trying to duplicate an arrangement you got off a recording. Otherwise you should know how to play songs in all 12 keys.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Although Glenn Cambell used a capo way back when on a Righteous Brothers Song "You've Lost That Lovin Feeling " to great advantage. And Glenn was one of the most Natural Born great guitarists ever!
    It's possible he was trying to get a particular sound you can't get any other way.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Literally the whole of Nashville: am I a joke to you?

    It's very possible that you need the open strings to ring to keep a particular sound going. Without the capo, it may not sound like that in a Blue Grass setting especially when you're well away from the nut.

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well, it DOES make a difference.

    The bluegrass players wouldn't sound the same if they were using moveable shapes.
    You nailed it. I told you you had your head screwed on straight.

  43. #142
    Tony Rice is a good example of a Professinal Guitarist who has studied and continues a path forward. Clarence White before him and Bryan Sutton currently are also great examples of true guitar heroes in my book!

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I don't understand 'capo hate' either, but I don't see any here. This thread is about lack of knowledge related to guitarist. If one uses a capo due to lack of knowledge comments about capo usage apply to this thread.
    Now we're getting to the crux of the matter. It's not so much capo hate specifically but it's more of specific capo users that bring out a hate in me. I have a few former high school guitar playing friends that I unfriended on Facebook for a number reasons, #1 because they turned into egotistical jerks and 2 because their playing hasn't evolved since high school and they think they're experts. Now I'm not what I consider a great guitarist but my playing has evolved even with songs I played as a beginner like Beatle songs, Gerry and the Pacemakers and a lot of 50s tunes. These guys play long stretches of chords not because the song calls for it, but because they know one or two inversions and no extensions to vary the sound and give the song some life. A friend of mine I was stationed with about 20 years ago saw me in my office practicing on a Byrdland. He looked at it and said "you know I hate that damn guitar. It sounds like they only play 'jing a jing a jing' and it drives me nuts." I said listen to this and I played a chord melody version of Somewhere Over the Rainbow. His eyes got wide open and said "Now that's way different". He went home and the next day, he came in with an old 1940s Sears Silvertone archtop and asked me to teach him how to play like I did. I understood completely where his head was at. It was about truly learning an instrument so you can play the music you want and not what the guitar wants. My former friends are putting out folk singing CDs and patting each other on the backs saying crap like "Oh your guitar playing is on the virtuoso level" or "You're the best guitarist I've ever heard". What a load of garbage since their playing doesn't go past an early intermediate level, while on here, I see a large number of players like you guys doing stuff I never heard before and I've been playing over 50 years and most of those "friends" have played longer than me. I'm here knocking my brains out to learn that instrument and improve myself while these guys are making loads of cash being full of crap. I think this is what we're all talking about when it comes to our beloved instruments and where we want to go. Sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intention. Thanks for the rant.

  45. #144
    BINGO, We have a winner! Above post sums it up beautifully. Even when I was in my 20s working 5 to 7 nights a week. I never lost place of where I was in relation to my instrument. And if I did it sure didn't take long to hear or play with more mature players that would hand me my ass! And they were very kind about it.

    It infuriates me with the advent of technology, anyone thinks there are shortcuts to actual mastery of any vocation. Sure a CNC machine can cut a wood body for a luthier. But a player piano program does not make Oscar Peterson.

    Also the fact that music has been so dumbed down for the sake of just fame and fortune. And that many musicians accept that it's great Music. WTF? I always knew what Pop was about ,$$$$ At least when it was left to actual musicians to make it, it had way more musicality.

    Rant Over!

  46. #145

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    I think I just know a lot of actually good guitar players

  47. #146

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    I've avoided weighing in on the capo issue up to now.

    When I was a teenager interested in jazz, I thought capos were for people who hadn't mastered barre chords and I looked down on capos.

    Now, I understand that what matters is how the music sounds. The capo is a tool for getting specific sounds. I don't even care if there's a harder way to get the same sound (and often, there isn't). It's equivalent to every other technique for getting a particular sound.

    It's not about some limitation in the player's knowledge -- although there may be situations in which that's the case. In the hands of a good player, it's all about getting a particular sound. I am aware of many things that just can't be done without a capo. Why throw those things away?

    Full disclosure: I've never used one. But, that's because I find it confusing. Not a joke.

  48. #147

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    Yeah. There is no cheating in music.

  49. #148

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    I don't use a capo. I don't really play music that needs it. But I can see how another player might want it for open, ringing strings while not playing in E, A, D, or G.

    I've got a bud who does a fantastic version of Springsteen's "Born to Run", solo acoustic with a capo up the neck, that is one of my favorite covers of all time. I don't think of it as "cheating" after hearing Norm do what he does. Norm can't do what I do, either. It's all good, because I'm more interested in the songs and how they sound and feel than I am with what technique you use (or don't use!) to get them where you want.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah. There is no cheating in music.
    Or crying. It's like baseball.

  51. #150
    I think one crucial component due to the IPhone and YouTube revolution. There are some amateurs that are great at self promotion. And that was something growing up in the 1970's we never had,and actually was glad of.

    I hear how great this new era is of freedom for musicians. What it really is ,is the gates keeping most of the hacks out of the business are now broken.
    You no longer need studio musicians,arrangers, producers, promoters,etc. And studio time is basically free! OH JOY!