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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    On the other hand, a friend of mine moved to Nashville a long time ago. He thought he might find a slot as a studio guitarist. So, he was in a studio checking things out and met a regular. I don't know who it was. My friend asked if he knew All The Things You Are. The guy said he thought so and proceeded to play a solo version of it with melody, chords, and walking bass all at the same time. My friend became a successful music journalist instead. I'm willing to bet that the studio guy couldn't read standard music notation very well if at all.
    A lot of players in Nashville use the "Nashville Number System" which is a way of charting chord changes without writing (or being able to read) standard notation.

    Here is one example of it. Knowing this, you can write the changes of a tune with numbers (1, 2, 3; not I ii iii) and it makes transposing on the fly easy (which is crucial if one backs singers, as different ones will choose different keys) Of course, one can do this WITHOUT knowing the NNS, but that's how it evolved. I think it was a singer in the Jordanaires (who backed Elvis, among others) who came up with it decades ago.
    Guitarists the Most Ignorant?-nns-chart-760x608-png

    Here's an article that also covers the most common symbols used and a photo of how an actual chart looks when written in this style.
    Crunching The Nashville Number System - Guitars - Harmony Central

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    It's almost as entertaining as knee-jerk condescension, wouldn't you agree?
    Hardly knee-jerk, actually very well-researched. Thanks for the laugh.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzism
    Dont be so hard on you’re self!
    Do you mean "yourself"?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    The guitar began its existence as a folk instrument somewhere between the 15th and 16th centuries in Malaga, Spain. Players were almost always unschooled in the Classical tradition. Once introduced, it became popular throughout Europe since it was easy to play on a rudimentary level. Little has changed over the years for most guitar "bangers" whether they are Rockers, C&W, Folk, or R&B. Today, many guitarists are schooled musicians(Classical and Jazz) and they have elevated the instrument to a very high level of performance. However, it doesn't mean that formal education is the only pathway to competence but, for most, it will get you there faster. Many early Jazz guitarists were "ear musicians" and played the repertoire of those times well. But today, Jazz has become a very sophisticated art form (as witnessed by the theoretical discussions on this forum) and many of the younger players today are well-schooled musicians. In life, knowledge is power. Music is no exception. Good playing . . . Marinero
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.

  6. #55
    I started this thread as I said earlier after seeing so many rock guitarists sitting in with Les Paul and his Iridium band on YouTube. I was dismayed that with exception of 2 players Steve Howe and Jeff Healy perhaps. They couldn't play anything with Les and his band except a very basic 12bar Chicago style blues.

    I used to play locally in a band here in Mpls that was a well know Monday night gig that had many famous Rock musicians stop by and sit in as well. Again I was floored how limited their repertoire and musical knowledge forced this same 12 bar type of scenario.
    Eric Gayles was one of the few along with a Sacred Steel pedal steel player were incredible! And in fairness Hiram Bullock got it as well. But most guitarists and including other types of musicians couldn't even follow the form of a longer blues form. "Baby I Love You" Aretha Franklin

    And when I hear people praising these musicians on forums and claiming what great musicians they are, I find this funny.
    It seems that it's okay that as guitarists we're given a free pass so long as we play with famous people,LOL!
    I can't tell you how many times I got my ass handed to me by older schooled, usually Jazz musicians. I went back and learned i.e. "Just Freinds" with correct changes and in different keys.

    I use that as just one example of many, that made me a MUCH Better musician and listener of others.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Hardly knee-jerk, actually very well-researched.
    I'll take your word for it. You're welcome for the laugh, but I'm probably not responsible for it.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I started this thread as I said earlier after seeing so many rock guitarists sitting in with Les Paul and his Iridium band on YouTube. I was dismayed that with exception of 2 players Steve Howe and Jeff Healy perhaps. They couldn't play anything with Les and his band except a very basic 12bar Chicago style blues.

    I used to play locally in a band here in Mpls that was a well know Monday night gig that had many famous Rock musicians stop by and sit in as well. Again I was floored how limited their repertoire and musical knowledge forced this same 12 bar type of scenario.
    Eric Gayles was one of the few along with a Sacred Steel pedal steel player were incredible! And in fairness Hiram Bullock got it as well. But most guitarists and including other types of musicians couldn't even follow the form of a longer blues form. "Baby I Love You" Aretha Franklin

    And when I hear people praising these musicians on forums and claiming what great musicians they are, I find this funny.
    It seems that it's okay that as guitarists we're given a free pass so long as we play with famous people,LOL!
    I can't tell you how many times I got my ass handed to me by older schooled, usually Jazz musicians. I went back and learned i.e. "Just Freinds" with correct changes and in different keys.

    I use that as just one example of many, that made me a MUCH Better musician and listener of others.
    Sounds like it’s about you really.

    its great that you have so many skills and a wide repertoire.

    but the whole Les Paul circus thing was about famous rock players. You don’t have to know standards to be a great rock player. But yes I do often think rock players should spend more time learning songs - not standards necessarily, just tunes, by ear.

    I mean I don’t know a load of Irish trad tunes and my knowledge of soul funk pop tunes is pretty limited. Why? I don’t do those gigs. If I did I would probably learn them.

    i tell you one rock player who would deal with the situation well; Pail Gilbert.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Do you mean "yourself"?
    I’m good pal, thx for asking!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.

    Hi, Ron,
    Classical Music is roughly defined as "Classical music is a very general term which normally refers to the standard music of countries in the Western world. It is music that has been composed by musicians who are trained in the art of writing music (composing) and written down in music notation so that other musicians can play it." There are far too many sources to cite but here's one of many: Search Results

    Web results


    The 15th-century classical music composers (timeline, top 10...)
    soclassiq.com › The_15th-century_classical_music_composers ›

    I don't think this needs any further discussion on my part. Perhaps were just quibbling about conceptualism. Good playing . . . Marinero


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i tell you one rock player who would deal with the situation well; Pail Gilbert.
    Another, I think, would be Alex Skolnick. Played thrash, studied jazz.

  12. #61

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    Pail Gilbert - hang on - that's Buckethead's real identity!

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    Another, I think, would be Alex Skolnick. Played thrash, studied jazz.
    Sure. Skolnick has put out some jazz albums.

    Timmons would be on it as well.

  14. #63
    I guess perhaps it is about me,or at least what I've learned about the Music languages. But isn't that the point to communicate with others and interact with them?
    That's my point in starting this thread. To continue to be viable as a working musician one needs to constantly reinvent. I like John McGlaughlins outlook in music as well as Miles Davis. They always kept learning and moving forward.

    Fine to learn one style, but why not take the best of many styles? Jimi Hendrix, Jaco, John Coltrane, even Ray Charles, Sting all take this approach as well.
    I may not be a Jazz musician as my first language, but I certainly have learned enough repertoire and understanding of the harmony, grooves,etc. to sit in with just about any situation. And as in any style I know how not play,lol!

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sure. Skolnick has put out some jazz albums.

    Timmons would be on it as well.
    I think Vernon Reid would've acquitted himself well, too.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    there was no classical tradition in the 15th and 16th centuries, it was just beginning to develop, and some great masters: Milan, Narvaez and many others mastered the vihuela and its cousins, composed spectacular music for it, and worked for the royal families. The guitar is a folk instrument because of its portability and ease of learning a few basic thing on, but it is also an instrument of high art, whether in jazz or classical settings. Then, as now, there were serious, accomplished masters, and those who got by with the least amount of work.
    I hope I'm not echoing anyone else's post or stepping on anyone's toes but I think you guys, ronjazz and marinero hit the nail on the head. My wife takes piano lessons at a local music shop where they mostly teach band instruments, piano, violin, cello, etc. I think you get the idea. Most of those who teach band instruments from what I can hear, teach by an age old structured, traditional method . Like in trumpet for example, you learn to read, you learn all your scales, arpegios, tongue techniquer and you develop your lip according to a long traditional method. I can almost go to any horn teacher there and elsewhere and find pretty much the same method. When it comes to guitar lessons, there is no traditional guitar method except in classsical or Flamenco and most people don't want to go that route. From what I see, you hear "this is an E chord. Put your fingers here. This is a G chord. Put your fingers there. Here's how you play Stairway." I taught for a short while, trying to go old school (I couldn't take it after a while) and the first thing my students got was Mel Bay Book #1 with the big old D'A on it. I taught them how to read music and rhythm patterns. I taught them what chords were made of, inversions and taught them how to learn a song with sheet music and chord charts. When I taught adults, it was horrible. They didn't want to start at the basic. They wanted to learn the chords and songs and be able to wail in a month or two. Except for one guitar teacher who has several degrees in music, they teach without reading and without understanding the guts of music. They know a handful of chords and that's about it. Now I'm no musical genius and I'm not saying I was great teacher or even a great player, but I started with what I thought were fundamentals and worked from there. I think the point is, most players don't start with the real fundamentals until much later. That's what happened with me. When I finally learned them, I tried to teach them. I ran into a huge roadblock. Thanks for letting me rant. I hope I didn't offend anyone. If I did, I'm sorry.

  17. #66

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    Carl Verheyen, Rit, Sid McGinnis, Dean Parks (or really, most of the Dan guitarists) ... these are guys who can read at least competent and play energetically at the same time.

    Sure, there's a lot of uneducated guitarists. My jazz teach told me once that the beauty of guitar is that it's easy to learn and impossible to master, and I agree with him. That's not to say there aren't many guitarists who have put in the time on instrument and can throw down on what you put on the stand in front of them. It also means that there are a lot of guitarists who couldn't tell a flat-nine from a flapjack on sheet.

    I also think there are different types of intelligence. An orchestral violinist may be able to read like the dickens but not have a grasp of how to improv over changes. My mom, a great pianist, was that way. She couldn't boogie-woogie to save her life (she had zero sense of the stride groove required), but I could bring home sheet and have her play it through the first time with no issues. I labor through reading and never had any great ability to sight-read even when I was practicing it hard. I don't work off sheet any more, and would probably be considered a hack by most everyone here.

    I think it's much more useful to simply listen to good music and figure out what those good musicians are doing. Whether we do it through theory or ear or feel isn't really the point, is it? I think the point is that as musicians we play compelling music, rather than indulge in invidious comparisons. Of course, that may be a self-serving point.

  18. #67

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    Some disappointed guitar teachers around here it seems. But people learn music for different reasons. Some want to just jam with friends or play a few songs. The guitar is different from horns and piano - you can play chords and melody and sing and it’s portable. Try bringing your trumpet to a campfire to sing and play some Johnny Cash songs. Or a piano. Oh... and isn’t standard notation actually tablature for piano? And what’s with those horn players anyway, they can’t easily play in E or A so everyone else has to play in less comfortable keys... and the world is full of wind players who quit because the instrument is useless except in an ensemble where you need those music reading skills. The guitar is simply more fun, I bet there is a survival bias...

    The guitar players who want to develop pro skills go to Berklee or some such and I bet they do just fine in ensembles with sheet music.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Some disappointed guitar teachers around here it seems. But people learn music for different reasons. Some want to just jam with friends or play a few songs. The guitar is different from horns and piano - you can play chords and melody and sing and it’s portable. Try bringing your trumpet to a campfire to sing and play some Johnny Cash songs. Or a piano. Oh... and isn’t standard notation actually tablature for piano? And what’s with those horn players anyway, they can’t easily play in E or A so everyone else has to play in less comfortable keys... and the world is full of wind players who quit because the instrument is useless except in an ensemble where you need those music reading skills. The guitar is simply more fun, I bet there is a survival bias...

    The guitar players who want to develop pro skills go to Berklee or some such and I bet they do just fine in ensembles with sheet music.
    .

    You bring up some very good points. I taught much more as a hobby than I did for a living. What I tried to do when I taught was exactly like you describe. I didn't want to train working musicians, I was teaching kids and adults who wanted to play as a hobby, i.e. play chords and melodies and sing around the campfire, the fraternity house or who just wanted to entertain themselves for a while. My end point was not a trained musician but someone who could pick up a book of songs, look through it, learn the melody, check the chord diagrams and the chords that go along with it without me having to teach them how to play every single song. I myself started by picking up a book of Beatle songs, looking at the chords, figuring out where to put the fingers, playing the melody to see what it sounded like and then learn the words so I could sing at a party and pick up girls. I had an older adult, a practicing dentist like myself as a student once who said he had classical guitar lessons for 7 years and he didn't know how to play songs. All he wanted to do was play songs like You Are My Sunshine. With 7 years of classical lessons under his belt, he should have easily got a book and figured it out. He quit after 1 lesson. Others just didn't want to put in the time to learn.

  20. #69
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.
    If they're making a living with their skills, what's the issue?They're obviously getting someone to pull out their wallet. That too is a skill. When I listen to a musician, their reading chops aren't my first concern. If they get me a tap in my toe and a dip in my hip, whether they can read or not isn't really relevant, is it?

  22. #71

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    Heck, I was only talking about the state of and traditions of how the guitar is being taught. I think this is like that old yarn where you ask what's the difference between a rock musician and a jazz musician. A rock musician plays 3 chords to 10,000 people. A jazz guitarist plays 10,000 chords to 3 people. If I really like the way somebody is playing, I don't care if they can read or tell the difference between a Dm7b5, a Bb9 and an Fm6.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    This thread wasn't started about Campfire guitarists or private teachers. I was commenting on the sad state of guitarists who are professional and make their living or part of of their living playing live,and recording as well.

    A better thread title might have been, "Anyone else learn what I did and come to develop a resentment for others who found success without learning those things?"

  24. #73
    Resentment for others who can't play their instrument. Maybe so, but more towards the acceptance of such mediocrity being praised and passing for actual music rather than a McDonald's Cheesburger.

    Popularity is just that, not music or art or real talent. When people who dumbed down the instrument as well as the Music become the bar we hold high,we are in serious trouble !
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!
    nahh, he just got frustrated that nobody ever gets his name right...

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    I don't care if they can read or tell the difference between a Dm7b5, a Bb9 and an Fm6.
    or that they are the same chord with different bass notes for that matter....

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    or that they are the same chord with different bass notes for that matter....
    ...and that's up to the ignorant bass player....

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    A lot of players in Nashville use the "Nashville Number System" which is a way of charting chord changes without writing (or being able to read) standard notation.

    Here is one example of it. Knowing this, you can write the changes of a tune with numbers (1, 2, 3; not I ii iii) and it makes transposing on the fly easy (which is crucial if one backs singers, as different ones will choose different keys) Of course, one can do this WITHOUT knowing the NNS, but that's how it evolved. I think it was a singer in the Jordanaires (who backed Elvis, among others) who came up with it decades ago.
    Guitarists the Most Ignorant?-nns-chart-760x608-png

    Here's an article that also covers the most common symbols used and a photo of how an actual chart looks when written in this style.
    Crunching The Nashville Number System - Guitars - Harmony Central
    I’ve done this with band leaders that do it with hand gestures. Fingers on a hand - up for major, down for minor.

    Keys can be indicated in a similar way - two up for d, three down for Eb and so on

  29. #78

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    Famous rock players getting exposed
    Attached Images Attached Images Guitarists the Most Ignorant?-09a964526f23269067e90b61fd1d9cb0-jpg 

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Resentment for others who can't play their instrument. Maybe so, but more towards the acceptance of such mediocrity being praised and passing for actual music rather than a McDonald's Cheesburger.

    Popularity is just that, not music or art or real talent. When people who dumbed down the instrument as well as the Music become the bar we hold high,we are in serious trouble !
    No wonder John McGlaughlin decided to retire!
    Time for a listen-to-some-dumbasses break, folks. Bear with me while I serve up some talentless hacks:







    I wonder when those guys will finally take some lessons and stop making that racket? Buncha losers. Hope they kept their day jobs.

  31. #80
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.

  32. #81

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    Sad, but true statement. There was no Charlie Parker (though Charlie Christian came quite close), no Coltrane, no Miles, no McCoy, no Wayne Shorter or Herbie Hancock.

    it took all these years to have people like the underrated George Benson (take 5!), Metheny, Abercrombie, McLaughlin and Scofield to open up to the learnings of Miles, Joe Henderson...

    But now we have Steve Cardenas, Kevin Eubanks, Adam Rogers, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg....

    these guys are near on the level of Mark Turner, Steve Coleman.

    but still, where is our Keith Jarrett? Our Herbie Hancock? our Jan Garbarek?

    must be because the guitar is harder than we think...
    Last edited by Djang; 04-11-2020 at 12:09 PM.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.
    Ok, I see you point.

    But look, if you mentioned Slash, these kind of guys need to be viewed more as composers than anything else. How many people came up with something like Sweet Chile O' Mine riff? It's a brilliant work, even if that's all he will be remembered for, but it's something.

    I know plenty of high level guitarists who giggin in NYC and they have amazing skills, can read music like there is no tomorrow, and know every standard in the world, but in the end of the day they don't really offer anything original in music. They sure get respect as musicians but secretly everyone wish they came up with something like Sweet Chile O MIne, or Back In Black, or Smoke On Water. When you pick up an electric guitar, thats the first thing you might want to play anyway.

    So in the words of the great Bon Scott ' You say that you want respect
    Honey for what?'

  34. #83
    I guess I've become like old Jazz Guys like Barney Kessel's comment on EVH. But I Actually like EVH as a rock player. Even though I've complained about Satriani sitting in with Les Paul and Iridium band.
    I feel the difference was Satch knows theory and still couldn't apply it.

    For me Slash is a Brand rather than an innovator. Not impressed with is playing or tone. But I could say the same for Prince as a player as well. Just personal taste, but find this type of playing very narccistic and not musical at all.
    Again just my viewpoint, not anything else.

    And probably the same in every generation. But with visual technologies seeming so important. This seems to be the primary factor rather than actual musical talent.

  35. #84

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    Yeah but Prince was a musical genius who happened to pay decent rock guitar.

    Slash is .... well, never a fan particularly. G’n’R always seemed a bit second hand. And it was only a couple of years before Nirvana broke massive and made them look like an .... LA Metal band?

    anyway.... people seem to like them.

  36. #85

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    I have read most of the replies here and based only on my personal experience with my friends, that are all amateur (non-professional) guitar players like myself, the knowledge of chords and associated harmony is where rock \ blues players are lacking.

    When a song calls for an chord other than a major, minor or Dominant 7 triad most of my friends look to me. (most also know minor 7th chord voicing but not major 7th ones and bar chord 6 and 9 voicings).

    E.g. Playing Honey Pie by Paul McCartney; the "B" section has a C minor 7b5 chord. Decades ago I used to start in on some theory ("you know how to play this minor 7th, well this is the 5th, just move it down one fret", but after being told "hey,, just show me the freaking chord!". I stopped doing this. My friends are good musician so they can quickly memorize that chord sharp but typically only for that song. Thus if there is another song with a minor 7b5, but NOT in C, I have to remind them of the other song and that the voicing I showed them was root based (i.e. just move it down to this fret).

    The other area was with songwriting. One guy is a good folk type guitar player and singer (nice voice, good timing). We did a duo act (I just played guitar). He had written a lot of songs but in most cases only the "A" section; I.e. he struggles with creating a bridge. Well I just used standard harmonic practices I had seen used in other songs; E.g. start the bridge on the 4th chord in the major harmonic progression, or the relative minor, circle of 5ths etc... We created some niffy folk songs (he was great at creating cool lyrics, often on the fly). He was more talented in many areas than I was, but my musical knowledge benefited his overall act.

  37. #86
    Prince is always given that title Musical Genius! I respectfully disagree with that asesment. I think he was a very talented copy cat of many styles of music and fashion. But a genius at marketing himself with the advent of MTV.

    I rarely find any of his compositions that extraordinary in a musical harmonic co text. But I do think Doves Cry and Diamonds and Pearls are excellent Pop tunes.
    Stevie Wonder on the other hand deserves the Genius tittle in my book.
    Mayne because piano is his primary instrument. Where as for Prince it was guitar as well as lack of Jazz or Classical composition understanding.

    I say piano because guitarists especially of non Jazz background don't often venture above the 7th degree of any scale sans dom7#9

  38. #87

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    Harmony is overrated sometimes

  39. #88

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    Obviously music with more extensions is de facto better

    (No)

  40. #89

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    I guess the frustrating part is that you can spend multiple lifetimes in the shed, master every bit of theory and technique, and still not sound very good.

    Even worse, the converse is also true. Which is that you can sound good without doing almost any of that -- except develop your ear, have good time and be able to put what's in your mind onto the guitar.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I guess the frustrating part is that you can spend multiple lifetimes in the shed, master every bit of theory and technique, and still not sound very good.

    Even worse, the converse is also true. Which is that you can sound good without doing almost any of that -- except develop your ear, have good time and be able to put what's in your mind onto the guitar.
    Uhuh.

    Look, I wish I'd known the importance of that a bit earlier. I work on my ear a lot - the way I work on it tends to be - learning songs by ear, and listening to music. Also copping the odd lick I like. Nothing fancy. And it works, funnily enough, just as it has for generations of players. I really think that's the engine of the work.

    Theory is... and remains.... a corpus of information that may have value to the practical musician. I get pigeonholed a bit as a theorist sometimes, but actually I don't think I am interested in theory at all. I have no use for abstract information. Everything I'm interested in is tools to get the job done. Theory can expand the usefulness of what you have learned - even something as basic as 'this is a moveable shape for a m7b5 chord', to more specific jazz bits of info like 'what works on Am works on D7' and so on.

    Older musicians had rules of thumb and tricks of the trade they used...

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I have read most of the replies here and based only on my personal experience with my friends, that are all amateur (non-professional) guitar players like myself, the knowledge of chords and associated harmony is where rock \ blues players are lacking.

    When a song calls for an chord other than a major, minor or Dominant 7 triad most of my friends look to me. (most also know minor 7th chord voicing but not major 7th ones and bar chord 6 and 9 voicings).

    E.g. Playing Honey Pie by Paul McCartney; the "B" section has a C minor 7b5 chord. Decades ago I used to start in on some theory ("you know how to play this minor 7th, well this is the 5th, just move it down one fret", but after being told "hey,, just show me the freaking chord!". I stopped doing this. My friends are good musician so they can quickly memorize that chord sharp but typically only for that song. Thus if there is another song with a minor 7b5, but NOT in C, I have to remind them of the other song and that the voicing I showed them was root based (i.e. just move it down to this fret).

    The other area was with songwriting. One guy is a good folk type guitar player and singer (nice voice, good timing). We did a duo act (I just played guitar). He had written a lot of songs but in most cases only the "A" section; I.e. he struggles with creating a bridge. Well I just used standard harmonic practices I had seen used in other songs; E.g. start the bridge on the 4th chord in the major harmonic progression, or the relative minor, circle of 5ths etc... We created some niffy folk songs (he was great at creating cool lyrics, often on the fly). He was more talented in many areas than I was, but my musical knowledge benefited his overall act.
    That's the beautiful thing, no? We all try to be all conquering individuals, capable at everything, but the truth is we all have different strengths, and the collaborative side of music is where the magic happens (for me.)

    Even in jazz... and jazz edu seems designed to make omni-competent versatile players, but nonetheless, some people make great MD's, great stunt soloists, great accompanists for singers and so on and so forth.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well lets add Wes,Joe Pass,George Benson, Robben ,Ford,etc to the list if serious reading was the requirement. That wasn't the point at all.
    Using your ears and knowing repertoire is equally important.

    My main bitch is that as an instrument, when a guy like Slash becomes the face of great guitar. And is accepted by not just the masses ,but also with most musicians. We are at a serious low point not only musically, but as a society.

    I'm not talking about circus entertainment either.Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Andy Timmons, and the like are great examples of excellence in my book.
    They seriously raise the bar with their abilities, and musical explorations.
    Bob Dylan's work is typically simple, but I'd call it real music. I get your point about guys who flog the pentatonic minor into submission, but I think that amongst admired guitarists of all genres there's usually a lot of music education that may or may not be flaunted. And I also think that some of the most moving music I've heard is pretty simple, too.

    Thanks for the discussion, it's making me think and that's always appreciated. Sorry for getting a little snarky earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I guess I've become like old Jazz Guys like Barney Kessel's comment on EVH. But I Actually like EVH as a rock player. Even though I've complained about Satriani sitting in with Les Paul and Iridium band. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I feel the difference was Satch knows theory and still couldn't apply it.
    I listened to part of that clip and yeah, he sounds very tentative. I imagine it's probably because he doesn't practice jazz regularly. It's one thing to have the knowledge, and another thing altogether to apply it on the fly in an improv. I know I have to 'shed before approaching genres and styles that aren't firmly in my wheelhouse.

  44. #93

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    I should soften a little, too. I have played in many rock bands and was always the one they asked about things - countless rehearsals where someone was playing a wrong chord, bass line, etc. and just weren't hearing it, like songs where the bass was supposed to pedal under changing chords, but instead tried to move with the chords, or some "hard to hear" chords unfamiliar to the pianist. Because of the characteristic simplicity of most popular rock songs, it is these specific details that make them sound right, and audiences who know nothing about music but know the songs will hear departures easily.

    I'll add that "professional studio work" is thrown around like some kind of guitar super credential, implying great knowledge and experience of this and that. Those of us who have done it know that what is most valued is patience and focus. The majority of the time is waiting to play, waiting on pizza delivery, waiting on engineering stuff. The majority of the work requires the ability to strum perfectly fingered cowboy chords, in perfect tuning, perfect rhythm, perfect tone and balance, making perfect chord changes, and maintaining absolute focus for the duration. There are great and gifted guitarists that simply can't do that. It's nice when you get to do more.

  45. #94

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    This thread reminds me of an experience decades back.

    My girlfriend won a radio contest and we got to go to the station's Christmas party in NYC. It was the station with Allison Steel, Jonathan Schwartz, Zacherle (sp?) and Roscoe.

    They had a singer songwriter with multiple AM hits as the entertainment. She played her tunes, which were great pop songs. Then ran out of tunes and people wanted to sing. She couldn't play any other tune. Not even the simplest and most popular Beatles songs.

    Since I'm being negative, I won't name her here, but you older folks would know her songs. She was able to learn a couple of cowboy chords and write and perform multiple hits. I'd say she was able to communicate feeling at a high level and could do it with minimal tools.

    I've mentioned before hearing one of my teachers sound great playing a single D note against a Bbmaj7. Or Jimmy Bruno sounding great playing the chord tones of a maj7 chord against that maj7 chord, or only notes of a C scale against a ii V I.

    If you can't do that, maybe there's a limited chance that knowing more technique is going to help.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Obviously music with more extensions is de facto better

    (No)

    Make it micro-tonal as well and now we're talking .. But only if you syncopate


    But just remember .. Music isn't about making something that resonates with people and is a defining thing in their lives.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Make it micro-tonal as well and now we're talking .. But only if you syncopate.
    thats because Jacob Collier is the best music.

    (no)

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This thread reminds me of an experience decades back.

    My girlfriend won a radio contest and we got to go to the station's Christmas party in NYC. It was the station with Allison Steel, Jonathan Schwartz, Zacherle (sp?) and Roscoe.

    .
    wnew fm...102.7

    what days!


    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 04-11-2020 at 08:53 PM.

  49. #98
    Well theory is just information written down to explain harmony,etc. How one uses it is the important factor. Wes Montgomery is a great example of a non reader who uses it to its full potential imo.
    John McGlaughlin is absolutely another great example. There are very knowledgeable musicians who Swing like a Turd in a Punch Bowl! And that holds true of all styles.

    Knowledgeable guitarists just seem to have more ways to that old saying,LOL !

  50. #99

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    You certainly got that right about vocalists!

  51. #100

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    Jack Pearson, 'nuff said