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  1. #1

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    Last chord in a tune, played 0455xx. That's E C# G (so far, Em6 no 5) and then C. That is, E C# G C.

    Chords leading up to it are Dbm6 Cm7 Bbm7 and then 0455xx.

    I already wrote it out on a separate stave for the pianist.

    What name do you like?

    Em6#5?

    Edim b13 no 5?

    E(c# g c) -- which is getting to be my favorite. You write write the notes out with the root as a cap.

    Ideas?

    Aside: as a sideman I've rarely worried about the exact voicing of the named chord. I just try to find something that works. There are some exceptions to this rule, where I really want to nail the sound on a recording.

    But, now I feel more like a horn arranger. That is, I want to hear the notes in the order I wrote. So, I can write out the notes in standard notation for the pianist, but if I have a typical guitar player reading the chart, that's probably not going to help. So, the notational system we use for chord naming is frustrating.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-15-2020 at 11:50 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    It is ambiguous.

    It implies the whole diminished scale family of dominants: C7b9, Eb7b9, Gb7+4. A7#9 which (Edim 7 add a C note = C7b9/E). It's in the family of diminished harmony (4 dominants, 4 diminished chords).

  4. #3

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    What chord follows?

  5. #4
    It's the last chord of the tune.

    For solos, the next chord will be either E (adg) (meaning stacked 4ths) or maybe Ebmaj7. I haven't written the solos changes yet.

  6. #5

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    If played up an octave X E X C# G C out of context, my first instinct is to hear it as a rootless A7#9. In the lower octave I am less convinced.
    ???

  7. #6

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    I know way too many inversions and voicings for most chords, plus use the general rule of not using low E string while playing in a combo or larger w/bass. If an arranger wanted that specific voicing for me to play, they had better notate it for me, not throw a chord name at it.

    A7#9/E....?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I know way too many inversions and voicings for most chords, plus use the general rule of not using low E string while playing in a combo or larger w/bass. If an arranger wanted that specific voicing for me to play, they had better notate it for me, not throw a chord name at it.

    A7#9/E....?
    Or perhaps a rootless Eb13b9. It sounds like a iv, iii, ii leading to an altered V in Ab.

  9. #8

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    For me it is hard to say without more context really...

    But in such a layout in my opinion actual intervals are more important than their functional (triadic) meaning.

    What I hear is more like

    E - C# major 6th
    C#-G triton (aug4th)
    G-C nat 4th

    I do not really hear hear E-G as min3rd over octave or G-C as inverted 5th etc. --- these intervals do not form triadic harmony for me.

    So to me it sounds as non-triadic stack/clash chord.... concluding chord in jazz pieces can be almost anything...
    it has more colour as function than tnsion/release relationship.


    The preceding chords you give do not really indicate any functional harmonic setup to my ear --- nothing really shows particular tension/release relations... without function it makes no sense to specify particular chord name.... I still believe that chord signs are function related and they could interpreted by performers freely as different voicings of particular chord/function ...
    Using letters and numbers to describe particular voicing is a dead end (though I admit it is widely used by the arrangers as a sort of encoded score)

  10. #9
    Someone made the point about raising it an octave. At that point it becomes a more familiar grip. 12 x 11 12 13 x. The grip brings to mind an Eb13th chord with the b9 in the bass (another good point made in a reply). But, that's just how I tend to use that grip -- not the only name for it.

    The point about non functional harmony is also a good one. The tune doesn't use convention V I or ii V I resolutions.

  11. #10

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    JGuitar - Chord Namer

    Em6#5 E Minor 6th Sharp 5th
    C#mM7b5/E C#/E Minor Major 7th Flat 5th
    G6sus4b5/E G/E 6th Suspended 4th Flat 5th

    JGuitar is a website I use often.

  12. #11

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    Dbm6 Cm7 Bbm7 and then 0455xx..... Eb(6)/Db or Edimb6?

    0455xx might be the V of Abmaj. If the key were Ab major and your mystery chord were the second to the last chord (the last being something like Ab(69) 4x334x), then the mystery chord would be some kind of Eb, as if the ending were a two-five-one like Bbm7 - Eb(6)/Db - Ab(69). There are songs where the ending would be a two-five-one but the one is omitted and it just hangs on an altered or tri-toned or unusually voiced version of the two. Is this tune in Ab major? Does it have this kind of penultimate chord hang?

    Otherwise it might be a diminished chord voiced so that the top voice is a b6th of the root, like the first chord in Stella or the second chord in Wave... so then Edimb6?

  13. #12

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    hey rp... yea I've used it as, in your context, just the A7#9. The sub V of the implied target of the root motion.

    Obviously can be anything you want. But pretty common to play a 7th chord a tritone away of last chord as a secondary ending chord. Your Bb-7 could be going to Eb7#11.... standard use of II V as ending tonic vamp... then play the tritone sub.

    More common would be A13#11... but the A7#9 would imply that the Eb7 would have #11...Eb9#11.
    Which could lead to the A7#9 secondary final chord.

  14. #13
    Here's a pdf of the section of the tune.

    The chords are all playable on guitar.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #14

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    pdf
    Then as it says, Em6#5. Or something. Also like this: o7x688. Nice :-)

    What's the A section like?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Here's a pdf of the section of the tune.

    The chords are all playable on guitar.
    Hey... it's Eb7 alt used instead of tonic chord Ab.
    Try xx5658... it has the same colour

    You can resolve to Ab ... or not ... if you sit on it it sounds stable.


    Quite common thing... it sounds unstable and stable simultaneously. Like Tonic and Dom function mixed together.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Hey... it's Eb7 alt used instead of tonic chord Ab.
    Try xx5658... it has the same colour

    You can resolve to Ab ... or not ... if you sit on it it sounds stable.


    Quite common thing... it sounds unstable and stable simultaneously. Like Tonic and Dom function mixed together.
    I like your point. To my ear, it could resolve to an Abmaj7#5 aka C/Ab. But I prefer the E(c# g c).

    But, C/E gets a lot of the sound. 04555x would be another alternative. Eb13b9/E.

    How about, for a breakthrough in notation (g) (C/C#)/E?

    Then, all you need to do is clear the parenthesis. This tells the chord instrument to put the C# note below the C triad and tells the bassist to play an E.

    I hear the chord scale (forgive me) as E WH, or whatever you want to call those notes.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Then as it says, Em6#5. Or something. Also like this: o7x688. Nice :-)

    What's the A section like?
    The A section is 8 bars, almost entirely dotted half notes. Two bars of Em11 (notated as E7/4), one bar each of Dm11, G9/D. Repeated. Melody is the top of the chord except for a triplet in bar 7.

    A lot simpler than the B section, which is, for the most part, a series of 4 beat phrases played in 3/4 time. With an extra beat at the end that sounds right, but makes no mathematical sense that I can figure. I omitted it in the solo changes which I just wrote.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Last chord in a tune, played 0455xx. That's E C# G (so far, Em6 no 5) and then C. That is, E C# G C.

    Chords leading up to it are Dbm6 Cm7 Bbm7 and then 0455xx.

    I already wrote it out on a separate stave for the pianist.

    What name do you like?

    Em6#5?

    Edim b13 no 5?

    E(c# g c) -- which is getting to be my favorite. You write write the notes out with the root as a cap.

    Ideas?

    Aside: as a sideman I've rarely worried about the exact voicing of the named chord. I just try to find something that works. There are some exceptions to this rule, where I really want to nail the sound on a recording.

    But, now I feel more like a horn arranger. That is, I want to hear the notes in the order I wrote. So, I can write out the notes in standard notation for the pianist, but if I have a typical guitar player reading the chart, that's probably not going to help. So, the notational system we use for chord naming is frustrating.
    just write it out in tabz bro (jk)

    seriously this is why people like guitar players who can read. Because somethings are a pain in arse in other notation.

  20. #19

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    With the E in the bass I think I’d be likely to hear it as some sort of diminished thing

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    With the E in the bass I think I’d be likely to hear it as some sort of diminished thing
    I attached the chart in an earlier post. I hear it as a resolution, which is odd for a diminished sound.

    I was listening to this yesterday, along with episode 157.

    GuitarWank - Episode 156 - Feb 4th, 2019 Chico Pinheiro — GuitarWank

    In one of the episodes Chico talks about a difference between Brazilian composition and American composition. The gist is that the Brazilians write melody first and don't worry about the harmony until after -- and don't care if it's functional. He cites Toninho Horta as an example, which makes perfect sense, noting that Toninho has a unique way of playing harmony on the guitar.

    If I understand him, Chico sees older American jazz as conforming to harmonic rules which aren't used in Brazilian jazz. He identifies Wayne Shorter as a kind of exception - not crystal clear to me (since it was a chat, not a lesson), or maybe I should listen again.

    Guitarwank, btw, is Bruce Forman (and another guy whose work I don't know) chatting with guitarists about music. There's a good deal of goofiness and then also some very serious inside baseball discussion about music and the music business.

  22. #21
    Here's the musescore playback of the tune. It includes a draft of my solo changes, but I'll probably change them.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I like your point. To my ear, it could resolve to an Abmaj7#5 aka C/Ab. But I prefer the E(c# g c).

    But, C/E gets a lot of the sound. 04555x would be another alternative. Eb13b9/E.

    How about, for a breakthrough in notation (g) (C/C#)/E?

    Then, all you need to do is clear the parenthesis. This tells the chord instrument to put the C# note below the C triad and tells the bassist to play an E.

    I hear the chord scale (forgive me) as E WH, or whatever you want to call those notes.
    Speaking about scales .. there could be different choices that would include/exclude some notes... I hear it rooted to C (like Phrigian or half-step/whole step) but I am not much into scales and scale definitions really...


    I understand your idea but I am not even into how to speel it out in symbols... I like these kind of things how they work musically... it is interesting for me what makes this or that chord have some meaning in context... when you first play such a chord it sounds like it is unresolved but when you stay on it --- it brings in the colour of some 'stability of different level' --- it sounds like it reveals that there could be something else (that did not happen)))


    I like playing in C major for example 4555xx as a concluding chord (you need good voicing to lead into this chord...
    Basically this chord works as alt dom - Ab-D-G-C (as G alt) and can be well resolved to 33200x
    But if you just stay on it it has that same general feel of strange insecure stability...

    Again I also think that actual range and pitch of notes are extremely important and especially on guitar where different ranges may have different colour more distinctly than on piano...

  24. #23

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    Man... don't pull that tune out on any gig I'm at... sorry joking...I just read through the PDF. (Parts transposed right, pretty high for acoustic.)

    So forget anything I posted... Just looking at the B section...

    Your using lots of Dim melodic pattern movement for deceptive something... but
    Ebmaj filler...F-7 Bb7 filler... Eb-7 Eb-7 Ab7 Db C-7 Bb-7..... filler dim back to Ebmaj

    The voicing can be whatever you choose... if you want Dim or Edim... WH going back to the Ebmaj, just use it... or if you want to use the A7#9 from MM with tritone resolution use it.

    I personally would want to break the Dim cycle... like taking a breath before and diving back in.

    Realizing... pretty muddy and thick, right. Cool as a notated read through piece... improve would be messy without organizing harmony, or rehearsed prepared performance etc...

  25. #24

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    Not a user friendly tune.

  26. #25

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    Call it a C#mM7b5/E. That'll throw 'em :-)

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I attached the chart in an earlier post. I hear it as a resolution, which is odd for a diminished sound.

    I was listening to this yesterday, along with episode 157.

    GuitarWank - Episode 156 - Feb 4th, 2019 Chico Pinheiro — GuitarWank

    In one of the episodes Chico talks about a difference between Brazilian composition and American composition. The gist is that the Brazilians write melody first and don't worry about the harmony until after -- and don't care if it's functional. He cites Toninho Horta as an example, which makes perfect sense, noting that Toninho has a unique way of playing harmony on the guitar.

    If I understand him, Chico sees older American jazz as conforming to harmonic rules which aren't used in Brazilian jazz. He identifies Wayne Shorter as a kind of exception - not crystal clear to me (since it was a chat, not a lesson), or maybe I should listen again.
    yeah I wasn’t sure what exactly he meant by that.

    I think this is more true of postwar American jazz compositions and reharms of tunes than it is of prewar music or all of the GASB as it was originally written. That generation started up writing contrafacts on standards and went from there.

    I see a lot of Jobim‘s harmony in Django for instance. It’s almost a cliche to say GJ and Bossa voicings are very similar. Obviously I am pretty ignorant about more contemporary Brazilian stuff, but Chico’s own Triades has lots of classic movement, so it’s in the mix at least.

    Harmony gets ii v I centric after 1950s. A lot of very good jazz musicians are quite ignorant that there was anything else, because that’s where the jazz courses START.

    (With respect obviously, Chico is a bad mf but noone has time to check it all out.

    I mean Scott Henderson knows basically fuck all about pre fusion jazz but he’s still a better musician than I could ever hope to be haha.)

    obviously I find it interesting Chico singles out Wayne as a melodic composer.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-17-2020 at 02:28 PM.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Man... don't pull that tune out on any gig I'm at... sorry joking...I just read through the PDF. (Parts transposed right, pretty high for acoustic.)

    So forget anything I posted... Just looking at the B section...

    Your using lots of Dim melodic pattern movement for deceptive something... but
    Ebmaj filler...F-7 Bb7 filler... Eb-7 Eb-7 Ab7 Db C-7 Bb-7..... filler dim back to Ebmaj

    The voicing can be whatever you choose... if you want Dim or Edim... WH going back to the Ebmaj, just use it... or if you want to use the A7#9 from MM with tritone resolution use it.

    I personally would want to break the Dim cycle... like taking a breath before and diving back in.

    Realizing... pretty muddy and thick, right. Cool as a notated read through piece... improve would be messy without organizing harmony, or rehearsed prepared performance etc...
    Thanks for taking a look at it.

    Range is the low E string open (only in the last chord), to Bb on the high E string, fret 6. In the original version, all the chords were playable on guitar. I later added a few notes here and there to fill out the sound when played on piano.

    I would not bring this to a gig, partly because I can barely play it. The section with one chord per beat is not so easy, at least for me.

    I appreciate your take on the harmonic flow. TBH, I don't have a clear take on it. I wrote the melody first and then harmonized it one phrase at a time by ear and that's what I ended up with.

    The thing I found most deceptive is the rhythm. The melody in the B section contains a series of 4 beat phrases. But, the chords feel more in 3/4. Easy to get lost. And then, I felt it needed an extra beat at the end. I couldn't solo over it, so I added easier solo changes.

    Some of the guys I play with regularly decided to write a song a week and get together (pre virus) to play them. It has been interesting. Different ways of approaching the task.

    I think a lot of us are writing stuff that's on the outer edge, or beyond, our ability to play. I've wondered if that's because it's hard to write something simple that sounds great.

    Now, hunkered down because of the virus, we're sending the stuff back and forth in mp3s and pdfs. Helps feel attached to music in a time of no gigs, no jams, no rehearsals, no shows.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-17-2020 at 03:48 PM.

  29. #28
    Chico's writing, maybe more on his earlier compositions, does follow some functional harmonic logic, if I understand the term.

    Take, for example, Encontro. The first four bars contain 3 ii V's with different tensions/extensions. It's complicated, but there's a functional core in there. Often, the lowest note in his chords move by a whole or half step, so the harmonic transitions sound smooth. I'd call it basically functional, but also quite advanced.

    Then, in some of the compositions, done later perhaps, the harmony is harder to analyze that way. Andre Mehmari seems to write like that. Possibly because of what Chico was saying -- they write melody first and don't use harmonic rules the same way as American jazz tended to do, at least some time back.

  30. #29

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    I would call it Arthur.

  31. #30

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    No, no, it's an Eric, no question