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  1. #1

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    I am looking for 2nd opinions regarding chord names in different languages and if / how their abbreviations are changed too? Such as....

    E major
    C suspended 4th aka Csus4
    G minor 7 flat 5 aka Gm7b5
    F diminished or F augmented
    etc.

    For example, would C suspended 4th be changed in both its full naming and abbreviation, or just its full name while abbreviation remains the same "sus4" so it can be universally understood in different languages? i.e. "C (foreign word for Suspended) 4th" aka C (abbreviation of foreign word for Suspended) 4th

    I've seen that the Spanish word for minor is "menor" so abbreviating D minor to Dm isn't a problem as both words begin with the letter m. What about words that are different enough that they can't share the same abbreviation however? e.g. the word diminished in Spanish is "disminuida" so would a Ddim chord be something like "Ddis" / "Ddism" or just stay as Ddim?

    Many Thanks,

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Other languages don't even us the same names for the different keys. C D E F G A B is only for English.

    Dm in Spanish is re menor.

  4. #3

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    We call B to H and Bb to B in Hungarian, do not ask why. Pretty disturbing btw.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    We call B to H and Bb to B in Hungarian, do not ask why. Pretty disturbing btw.
    Same in Germany and very embarassing. Allegedly it comes from monks who back then copied books by hand (before Gutenberg) and there was a soft "b" with a round belly and a hard "b" with an angular belly (relating to Bb and B respectively) and someone started to copy the hard "b" as an "h". This should have been corrected a long time ago.

  6. #5

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    We have a big band chart that has H on it--took the piano player and me a bit of head scratching to figure it out.

    Danny W.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Other languages don't even us the same names for the different keys. C D E F G A B is only for English.

    Dm in Spanish is re menor.
    Interesting thanks. I looked around for that and found this website uses Dm and Re menor Acorde Dm piano (Re menor) - AcordesPIANO.com

    The video on this one includes Rem7 and Dm7 for the video title Re menor septima - Aprende como se toca este acorde

  8. #7

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    All the Spanish musicians I have known convert on the fly, from reading so many charts in English. Try searching for the "acordes" to All The Things You Are and see what comes up

    Anyway, Bbmaj7 takes up a lot less space than si bemol séptima mayor.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Anyway, Bbmaj7 takes up a lot less space than si bemol séptima mayor.
    And what would they be teaching grade school age musicians at school?

  10. #9

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    I moved to the UK from the US and rhythmic nomenclature is preposterous. Minims, Crotchets, Semi-brevs, Quavers, Semi-Quavers, Hemi-Quavers, Demi-Quavers, Semi-Hemi-Quavers, Semi-Hemi-Demi-Quavers. For those of you who don't know already, can you guess which is which? Me neither. Folks in my choir all agree that the American rhythmic nomenclature makes more sense...but they won't go there. It's actually quite hilarious.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Same in Germany and very embarassing. Allegedly it comes from monks who back then copied books by hand (before Gutenberg) and there was a soft "b" with a round belly and a hard "b" with an angular belly (relating to Bb and B respectively) and someone started to copy the hard "b" as an "h". This should have been corrected a long time ago.
    But it allows composers to use the Bach motif.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    And what would they be teaching grade school age musicians at school?
    si bemol séptima mayor

  13. #12

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    In most countries where I've had the chance to play, chord sheet notation follows the UK/US norms but orally people use the longer local form. For example, in France a songbook will show Bb7, but people will say "si bémol 7".

    As YouTube usage has extended over recent years there seems to be a global trend towards the UK/US notation..... but we are far from harmonisation..

    I've never had difficulty with UK naming of notes. To me, the US system is just as illogical in 3/4 time when a "quarter" is in fact a third of a bar or measure, not a quarter.....it's a question of habit and what you're used to

  14. #13

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    All interesting replies thanks. This online translator I've been using is good...

    DeepL Translator

    If you put in "C major" for English then translate to Spanish it gives "Do mayor". "A major" only gives "La mayor" when you enter context e.g. "music chord A major" otherwise "A major" could be other contexts and the AI won't know which (e.g. "A major undertaking" for example).

    If you put chord abbreviations in it won't change them though. For example "music chord A9sus4/E" does not translate to "La9sus4/Mi" (for the A9sus4/E bit).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray175
    In most countries where I've had the chance to play, chord sheet notation follows the UK/US norms but orally people use the longer local form. For example, in France a songbook will show Bb7, but people will say "si bémol 7".
    I wonder if any books use both terms for different situations? For instance if it described the chord in text it might refer to it as "si bémol 7" but for chord diagrams or song chart have Bb7. Is it acceptable to use both like this I wonder?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    since I read jazz scores in France, I have only seen Chords Symbols used in Anglo-Saxon countries. In the text it can be as oral, as said by Ray175

    personally, in my scores and texts in French, I write the chords symbols for chords and do re mi fa sol la si... for notes. But here I write the notes C D E G...

    there are few changes. My teachers of harmony and improvisation wrote Xb57 because the augmented fifth arrives before b7 and replaces the fifth, and X7#11 because there may be a fair fifth. For a guitarist, it doesn't often make the difference, since he gets b5 by going down 5, but you can also make chords with 5 and #11, and even more easily with 7 or 8 strings

    incidentally, in Japan (my wyfe is japanese) they say the notes do lè (r is pronounced ) mi fa so' la si... but jazz musicians use chord symbols
    Merci Patlock. Puis-je vous demander comment vous pourriez écrire A9sus4/F en Français? S'il vous plaît ne répondez pas en français je suis juste en train d'être aventureux avec DeepL!

    I found this book's Look Inside shows that the Spanish (I think he is Spanish?) author uses both Do Re Me and C D E terms but mostly the C D E terms it seems. That seems more practical in terms of limited space for a fretboard diagram of note names. He also uses the C D E terms for constituent notes of chords from Ejercicio 10 and upward.

    https://www.amazon.es/Curso-completo.../dp/1545221642

  16. #15

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    Would anyone know what Spanish is for "Picking" and "Alternate picking" in the context of guitar (as opposed to what appears to end up as "choosing" when I translate "picking" to Spanish) please?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Would anyone know what Spanish is for "Picking" and "Alternate picking" in the context of guitar (as opposed to what appears to end up as "choosing" when I translate "picking" to Spanish) please?
    guitar pick: púa de guitarra
    alternation: alternancia

    in the Spanish sentences, we hear for jazz the English expressions, there is apparently no problem of understanding

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    guitar pick: púa de guitarra
    alternation: alternancia
    in the Spanish sentences, we hear for jazz the English expressions, there is apparently no problem of understanding
    Most useful thanks Patlotch. "alternancia" could be useful. The word for "picking" or to "pick" I have trouble with. According to this "Pulsa" is to pluck Pulsa | Spanish to English Translation - SpanishDictInteresting how it looks like the property of an action (pulsate) is the word for the action itself (pluck a string) in Spanish. If in English you were to “pulsate” a guitar string, I can’t think of what else this could mean other than to make it pulsate by plucking it. Maybe "alternation de tocar" or "alternation de pulsa".

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Most useful thanks Patlotch. "alternancia" could be useful. The word for "picking" or to "pick" I have trouble with. According to this "Pulsa" is to pluck Pulsa | Spanish to English Translation - SpanishDictInteresting how it looks like the property of an action (pulsate) is the word for the action itself (pluck a string) in Spanish. If in English you were to “pulsate” a guitar string, I can’t think of what else this could mean other than to make it pulsate by plucking it. Maybe "alternation de tocar" or "alternation de pulsa".
    I unfortunately can't help you, I'm even worse in Spanish than in English. It is only in Slovak that I am bilingual, ask my Old friend Cosmic Gumbo

    you can't find a translation of some jazz guitar terms into Spanish, it's simply because Spanish jazz guitarists use English terms, like the French and many others. This is also the case in Japan, but it is less evident, because they write the Western words with Katakana imitating the American accent


    if Westerners knew Japanese jazz magazines, they would be amazed. They are very thick, often luxurious. It would also be very interesting to know what pedagogy they use, given the fact that music teaching is quite different from ours

    To get back to the subject, Japanese are very good at Afro-Cuban music and Flamenco


  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Merci Patlock. Puis-je vous demander comment vous pourriez écrire A9sus4/F en Français? S'il vous plaît ne répondez pas en français je suis juste en train d'être aventureux avec DeepL!
    despite being French and bilingual English/French I have no idea of what would be the pure French way of notating this chord, although I perfectly understand what it means like virtually all French jazz musicians do I guess.

    I might be tempted to write "LA neuvième suspendu en quarte, basse FA", but I'm not sure at all.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Would anyone know what Spanish is for "Picking" and "Alternate picking" in the context of guitar (as opposed to what appears to end up as "choosing" when I translate "picking" to Spanish) please?
    Picking is "punteado". That said, we generally just use the original term in English; it's usually a lot shorter.

    El movimiento adecuado para el Alternate Picking. You could say púa alternada, but no one bothers.

    Leccion de Sweep Picking basico para principiantes

    El Fingerpicking, también llamado Fingerstyle

    Con el Hybrid Picking se consigue una armonía muy original

    palm mute consiste en enmudecer las cuerdas con la palma de la mano

    Alternate picking: golpes alternados hacia arriba y abajo

    More here, pretty complete:
    Todas las tecnicas de guitarra - Escribir Canciones

    ¡Saludos!

  22. #21

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    Sorry for the delay I've been working on some other easier stuff since last post. Well actually no, pretty difficult lol, translating poems that rhyme. Completely changing them to make them still rhyme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    you can't find a translation of some jazz guitar terms into Spanish, it's simply because Spanish jazz guitarists use English terms, like the French and many others. This is also the case in Japan, but it is less evident, because they write the Western words with Katakana imitating the American accent
    Thanks. I am still feeling a little unsure about all this but your post and others here are giving me more info to base these decisions on.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhch
    despite being French and bilingual English/French I have no idea of what would be the pure French way of notating this chord, although I perfectly understand what it means like virtually all French jazz musicians do I guess.

    I might be tempted to write "LA neuvième suspendu en quarte, basse FA", but I'm not sure at all.
    We went for these in Spanish.

    A9sus4 (A9 de 4ta suspendida)

    A9sus4/E (A9 de 4ta suspendida sobre E)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Picking is "punteado". That said, we generally just use the original term in English; it's usually a lot shorter.

    El movimiento adecuado para el Alternate Picking. You could say púa alternada, but no one bothers.

    Leccion de Sweep Picking basico para principiantes

    El Fingerpicking, también llamado Fingerstyle

    Con el Hybrid Picking se consigue una armonía muy original

    palm mute consiste en enmudecer las cuerdas con la palma de la mano

    Alternate picking: golpes alternados hacia arriba y abajo

    More here, pretty complete:
    Todas las tecnicas de guitarra - Escribir Canciones

    ¡Saludos!
    Thanks for that, most useful. I think my problem is my perspective. A person who is already Spanish will likely already know what they can “get away with” in terms of using original English words, from their years of experience reading in Spanish and noticing those words. My perspective being English and translating into a language I don’t know, I am clueless on that front; not already knowing, or at least needing to find out, the specific words that the Spanish leave as their original English.

    As a sort of insurance, due to that, I am inclined to make best effort to translate everything into Spanish. I think that this can’t do any harm so long as it makes sense in Spanish? e.g. Hybrid has a word in Spanish Híbrido It seems there’s a couple of Spanish candidates for the word picking / plucking…

    Punteado (2.a)
    Punteado | Spanish to English Translation - SpanishDict

    Pulsa (3.a)
    Pulsa | Spanish to English Translation - SpanishDict

    Is the .ar in the URL you posted for Argentina I wonder? There are several different versions of Spanish. I need to use what’s known as International Spanish so the translator(s) tell me.

  23. #22

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    If you don't know a language and the culture/s in which it is spoken, translation is a no-no.

    Over the years, I've spoken to jazz/rock/blues players from several Spanish-speaking countries and they all generally use the English terms, as I already pointed out. You do whatever you see fit.

    BTW, I've been bilingual in three languages* for over 30 years and have no idea what "international Spanish" (español neutro) is supposed to be.

    (*I'll be here all week, folks)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    If you don't know a language and the culture/s in which it is spoken, translation is a no-no.

    Over the years, I've spoken to jazz/rock/blues players from several Spanish-speaking countries and they all generally use the English terms, as I already pointed out. You do whatever you see fit.

    BTW, I've been bilingual in three languages* for over 30 years and have no idea what "international Spanish" (español neutro) is supposed to be.

    (*I'll be here all week, folks)
    I'll be confused all week! So then....it has to be knowing what specific words remain English in that case. For "Barre chord", or "root note" or "Fret" I've only noticed Spanish using "Cejilla", "nota raíz" and "traste" but never the English terms, so I'd need to distinguish that sort of thing. Your link will be good for future reference. The varying ways it presents language terms seems to reflect a grey area between the two? There's a Spanish explanation of the English title....

    Alternate picking: Consiste en golpes alternados hacia arriba y abajo. English = Alternate picking: Consists of alternating up and down strokes.

    An actual Spanish term given...

    Sweep picking: En español se conoce como barridos: English = Sweep picking: In Spanish it is known as barridos:

    and the English term in brackets after the Spanish...

    Técnicas híbridas (Hybrid picking):

    I think I'd like to opt for the latter, both ES and EN with EN in brackets for titles. That would need there to be a Spanish term to start with, which going by that website isn't always the case, therefore I would need to translate. For instance...

    Alternation de pulsa (Alternate Picking): esto es usar golpes hacia abajo y hacia arriba para tirar de las cuerdas.

    That way I think, I can satisfy more potential angles. My priority is just to not be ambiguous to the reader, I don't mind style.

    I suppose International Spanish must be some kind of bare vanilla version without any nuances of any of the different kinds of Spanish. Lastly, not too important, but I wonder if the following is Spanish phonetic spelling of fret?

    b) Freet tapping con acordes

  25. #24

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    I'm not sure if this is 100% ontopic.
    But guitar parts have funny and confusing names in my country, so I always like to use english terms.
    Cause of strange names, ........
    Friend did call me once. He was looking for guitar repair man, and ask me if I knew someone. He has Les Paul .... He said his nut was broken.
    And nut in my language has very similar and strange name to one of bridge pieces on Les Paul.
    So first I thought like, his one tailpiece was broken or like 1 saddle is messed up something.
    So I was like looking for replacement on internet.
    Then he told me like, that his nut was broken. Not like tailpiece. XD
    We get like terms from foreign languages for musical terms (usually italian).
    But for like guitar parts we have like strange names .... -.-

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecena
    I'm not sure if this is 100% ontopic.
    But guitar parts have funny and confusing names in my country, so I always like to use english terms.
    Cause of strange names, ........
    Friend did call me once. He was looking for guitar repair man, and ask me if I knew someone. He has Les Paul .... He said his nut was broken.
    And nut in my language has very similar and strange name to one of bridge pieces on Les Paul.
    So first I thought like, his one tailpiece was broken or like 1 saddle is messed up something.
    So I was like looking for replacement on internet.
    Then he told me like, that his nut was broken. Not like tailpiece. XD
    We get like terms from foreign languages for musical terms (usually italian).
    But for like guitar parts we have like strange names .... -.-
    It is confusing. I notice the Spanish use the same term for the nut and barre chords (cejilla). I try to look for a consensus by spotting the most frequently used term for something. I search for "Guitar Parts" or "Parts of the Guitar" in whatever language e.g. "partes de la guitarra" into Google image search gives lots of labelled diagrams.

  27. #26

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    I played a little bit of piano in school. Cause we needed to pass basic piano stuff in order to pass grade.
    For all the musical terms there, we used like Italian language.
    I'm not sure how it is in terms of guitar. Cause we had only piano.
    But for piano technique and basic music stuff we used 95% of time Italian terms.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecena
    I played a little bit of piano in school. Cause we needed to pass basic piano stuff in order to pass grade.
    For all the musical terms there, we used like Italian language.
    I'm not sure how it is in terms of guitar. Cause we had only piano.
    But for piano technique and basic music stuff we used 95% of time Italian terms.
    Yes like classical guitar; Forte, Allegro, Andante, Da Capo, etc. I see a similarity in what Peter C says, in that it looks like some English terms are equivalent universal words for contemporary guitar, at least in Spanish.

  29. #28

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    I don't know if you get what I'm saying: of course we don't say "fret" in Spanish - it's a part of the guitar, which existed here in Spain long before any of the aforementioned musical genres appeared.

    If you're English-speaking and learning Flamenco guitar, you'll go through a similar process.....

    alzapúa - technique that uses solely the thumb

    rasgueado - drumroll effect created by using the the fingernails, striking the strings one after another (held back by the thumb)

    OK?

    Anyway, if you post an example text of what you think your translator(?) is looking for, I'll tell you how it looks.
    Last edited by Peter C; 03-05-2020 at 07:46 PM.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    I don't know if you get what I'm saying: of course we don't say "fret" in Spanish - it's a part of the guitar, which existed here in Spain long before any of the aforementioned musical genres appeared.

    I'm guessing it's the last part in my previous post that makes you think that I think that? where I wondered about the bit on the website you linked that said:

    b) Freet tapping con acordes


    "Anyway, if you post an example text of what you think your translator is looking for, I'll tell you how it looks."

    No need. The input from this thread is most useful. Besides I already get opinions that vary from translators themselves which I have to weigh my decisions between.