The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    To get back on topic, it definitely seems to me that Ligon is saying that a dominant chord, when it's actually functioning as a V, pulls most clearly to I. It "wants" to resolve.
    Quite, which is exactly what I said in reply to the OP. Very basic stuff.

    By his own admission the OP is completely new to this. But the book he's using is highly technical and advanced. That's why he's come here and asked about a basic question. I think the book is obviously too advanced for him. Not that I'm suggesting he doesn't use it, it's up to him. I just think he'd make better progress with something simpler, that's all.

    And if we want to drive people away from the forum, these sorts of personal confrontations, complete with SHOUTING, is just the way to do it.

    (Not you, Jeffery, your head is on very straight :-))

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    With only 4 posts, I'm not ready to make an assumption as to what the OP knows or doesn't. Actually, I can infer from a few posts that the OP's background might be in classical harmony, which is why the terminology of "points to" was new and confusing, as classical theory has a very standardized set of vocabulary. Jazz kinda doesn't.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    What is it you want to do, fundamentally?
    That is a very good question, regardless of the discussion that ensued about whether the book is any good. While it seems clear to me that Bert Ligon knows what he's talking about, it might be that it's not the book for me.

    Let's hope I don't bore you with too many details, then. I started playing violin when I was seven, and according to the adults I was good at it (for my age), but at around 11-12 y/o, I got bored. I started playing guitar instead, cause I wanted to play rock and blues. Unlike with the violin, with which I had been playing sheet music with a professional teacher, I just sat down on my own, and played a whole lot of notes almost at random searching for some pattern, and figured it out after a while. I think it might have been because I had played a monophonic instrument for so many years, that I got real good at playing/composing/improvising melodies, and got an alright sense of rhythm, but I wasn't very good with chords and progressions.

    Now I'm 45 years old, have hardly touched a music theory book in my life, and still feel that chords and progressions are my weakest point. While I don't play jazz, I do gravitate towards the complex chords that are common in jazz, that can be tense and ambiguous, but at the same time so beautiful and melodic. Unpredictable and whimsical, yet they make so perfect sense when done right. How do they do that? Whenever I start to dabble in more complex chords, which I love, I often feel like hunting in the dark, unlike with melodies where my intuition helps me realize the notes in my head. So, just like I see theory courses teach people melodic concepts that I spent years figuring out on my own, I thought maybe it might help my chords understanding to bite the bullet and start learning some theory, and that jazz theory might be a place to start, since I have been admiring how many jazz players handle chords and progressions so effortlessly and effectively. I chose Bert Ligon's book for two reasons:

    1) From most of the posts in this forum it seems his books are highly respected.
    2) It starts at the beginning, with the most fundamental diatonic stuff, only to then progress towards the advanced and jazz-specific concepts.

    If it's true that I'm actually making it harder for myself this way, I'm open for suggestions! This does not necessarily mean that Bert Ligon's book is bad, it just means it might not be the best way forward for me. But for now I'm happy with the book, and it has already helped me hear what's really happening "inside" the chords, by showing me what to listen to.

  5. #29

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    Thanks, that was a great post. You did say you were very new to it all but it seems you probably have an excellent background for assimilating the necessary theory concepts on chords, etc.

    I can only wish you all the best. And do come back if other questions arise, which they probably will. I'm sure we'll all do our best at answering them. Good luck - and that really was a terrific post. Brilliant!

  6. #30
    So, Bert Ligon has answered! He confirms what we have already established regarding what "points to" means. I can see that I might have come across as a bit more of a noob than I really am. The fact that V7 resolves to the tonic chord is something I figured out about thirty years ago when I first picked up the guitar, so that in itself isn't really new to me. I never figured out, or contemplated about why, and this I have learned now. The example from Twinkle-Twinkle-Little-Star and how the notes "wants to move to" a chord tone is also the kind of stuff I figured out on my own. Later I learned the terminology in classical harmony to talk about this phenomenon. I was merely confused about terminology. Here is his answer:

    ---

    The dominant chord is really a collection of musical pitches that point to the tonic chord. The idea of a dominant chord came much later than the idea of melodic pitches. Some melodic pitches are more consonant [seem settled and do not necessarily need to move], and some dissonant [feel like they need to resolve].


    In the key of C, the C is the most important pitch. G is the dominant and the second most important pitch. G melodically points back to C. [O Christmas Tree, Here Comes the Bride, etc]. E is the next most important pitch—it indicates modality: major or minor. The three consonant pitches in C are C, E & G. This also corresponds to the harmonic series. Blow in a pipe, stop harmonics on a string and you will always get these pitches. That is primarily why we experience them as consonant.


    All the other pitches point [want to move] back to those three primary pitches.


    The pitch A wants to resolve back to G. F points back to E. D and B point to C. The melodic pitches that point back to the C triad are: G, B, D, F, A. Add those together and they sound create a G9 chord, or maybe better understood—the G9 chord is made up of all the melodic pitches that point to the C triad. A G7 or G9 chord points to C.


    Pitches in a musical context have linear implications. The basic notes in the key are explained above. You can hear how each of those notes creates a dissonance or sense of motion by singing Twinkle in the key of C. C G A G F E D C.
    “Twinkle Twinkle” [C-G]. G wants to begin a journey back to C.
    “Little Star” [A-G]. The dissonant A wants to move back to G.
    “How I wonder” [F-E]. There is no doubt here that the F wants to resolve to E.
    “What you are” [D-C]. Where else would D want to go at that point?


    Check out hundreds of folk, patriotic, and Christmas songs and listen for this melodic principle. If you understand the melodic principle of pointing notes or voice-leading, chord symbols are then representations of the melodic implications.


    If you introduce a chromatic tone, it will want to point to a tone in the key, and that tone might point back to the tonic notes. Introduce a D# and it wants to resolve to E. Introduce an F# and it wants to resolve up to G. An A natural wants to resolve back to G [“little star”]. Play the A then Ab and the Ab wants to resolve to G. This is all independent of chords, but this voice-leading is the true source of chords. The G7 did not come first—it is a result of melodic pitches that point back to C.


    I hope this helps some.

  7. #31

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    Bautastein,

    you might be a good candidate for a few other books too, to use with your study of Bert's material...(man I'm contradicting myself a lot today, as this goes against my usual adage of "you can't learn jazz from a book")

    I suppose to me it sounds like you're not trying to learn jazz, but rather incorporate some of what jazz harmony offers into what you're already doing? So I feel this could be helpful.

    Mickey Baker volume one will get you using "jazz chords" in practical applications right out of the gate. No theory really, just practice.

    Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" will give you literally HUNDREDS of options for chord extensions, and his stuff is all about tension and resolution. This book is a reference book, NOT a method book. You could literally take a handful of ideas from it and work with them for a year or more.

  8. #32

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    What Jeff said.

    Also, I have no downer on Bert, he's a great musician. He's essentially a pianist but plays guitar too. I like this quite a lot!