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  1. #1

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    Can you name any tune that uses a V7 #11 resolving to I ?
    For example G7 # 11 resolving to C maj

    Thanks
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-27-2019 at 03:26 PM.

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  3. #2

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    How can you tell it’s not a 7b5?

  4. #3
    Okay, can you please name a tune that goes either V7 b5 (natural 13, natural 9) or V7 #11 (natural 13, natural 9) to I ?
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-27-2019 at 03:52 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Okay, can you please name a tune that goes either V7 b5 (13) or V7 #11 (13) to I ?
    Then no, not off the top of my head.

  6. #5

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    Generally the resolution would be a half step down. G7#11 down to Gb major or minor, or even maj/min7
    More common would be an (G) V alt dominant to a (C) I resolution .

  7. #6
    Thanks , I know that. I'm just checking if anybody can recall a standard that actually calls for it for a V7 (#11, nat 13, nat 9) to tonic I ? I can't think of a case, although I have heard great pianists do it.

  8. #7

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    Maybe not written explicitly, but there's no good reason you can't incorporate the #11 into your own playing (bearing in mind the melody of course). V7 is about as open as it gets, and people mix altered/diminished/mixo language all the time. So even if you're playing #11, 13, 9 etc. it doesn't even necessarily mean you're thinking lydian dominant or have that chord written before you, you're just creating melodies with everything available to you. Use your own discretion

    I guess my underlying thought is..why do you ask? Are you looking for justification or for a tune to practice it on?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Okay, can you please name a tune that goes either V7 b5 (natural 13, natural 9) or V7 #11 (natural 13, natural 9) to I ?
    One of the things that adds up to us a polychord of a major II triad over a V7. In the key of C:

    G B C# E F A which might not be a pleasant voicing. Let us know what you find!

  10. #9
    Pulling at straws: Tune Up ? Nah, it’s just the melody.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Pulling at straws: Tune Up ? Nah, it’s just the melody.
    Which brings us to the question ‘what is a chord symbol?’

    Well a lot of the times the chord extensions are given by the melody in those older tunes. I mean what are we talking about if not the melody? Most music before 1960 was based on melody over simple chords and any extensions fall out of that. (Often because jazzers started to hear and write harmonic appogiaturas into extensions - cf Stella)

    And then there’s arrangements where the harmony is written to be more complex, but is this part of the turn per se?

    OTOH composers increasingly melodicised chord progressions after the 1960s.... so the chords were written pretty much as performed rather than a melody harmonised and reharmonised post haste.

    I can think of examples that have both the 13 and #11 in the melody on II7 but not on a V chord..... it would presumably resolve to the 9 on the I.

    I can think of examples that have a 13 on a V chord - extremely common in standards, and tunes that have a b5 on V / particularly common in minor key bebop heads.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Can you name any tune that uses a V7 #11 resolving to I ?
    Ipanema: Gm7 - Gb7b5 - FM7.


  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Ipanema: Gm7 - Gb7b5 - FM7.

    But that's a bII7#11 not V7#11? More analogous to altered as it relates to V?

  14. #13

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    Ha! I hadn't listened to it with any focus, I was more looking at the chords as written on the vid (as it's got F7#11 - FM7).

    Trouble is he's not playing that at all. Actually he's playing:

    F69 - x8778x
    G9 - x1091010x
    Gm9 - x1081010x
    F#7#9 - x98910x
    F69 - x8778x
    F6 - x8776x
    (F#9 - x9899x)

    And, from the Gm, the bass goes G - E - F.

    Make of it what you will! But you've got to admit it sounds pretty good.

    (He changes it later. That's only the first few bars, I haven't done the whole thing).

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    But that's a bII7#11 not V7#11? More analogous to altered as it relates to V?
    Well it’s a Gb7 chord with a C in the melody, so it’s open.

    I tend to enjoy cadentially efficient sounds (ie more chromatic) for V-Is though, and I suspect most jazz players would. So G7#11 seems more likely.

  16. #15

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    it’s a Gb7 chord with a C in the melody
    See above

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Ha! I hadn't listened to it with any focus, I was more looking at the chords as written on the vid. (as it's got F7#11 - FM7).

    Trouble is he's not playing that at all. Actually he's playing:

    F69 - x8778x
    G9 - x1091010x
    Gm9 - x1081010x
    F#7#9 - x98910x
    F69 - x8778x
    F6 - x8776x
    (F#9 - x9899x)

    And, from the Gm, the bass goes G - E - F.

    Make of it what you will! But you've got to admit it sounds pretty good.
    Cool. Yeah so that’s an A pedal in the top voice. V Bossa. So I suppose you could say a number of things scalically couldn’t you? But not altered.

    One cadence that is interesting is Insensatez

    Cm6 G/B Bbmaj7

    So, G/B has the #11 and 13.... but is it a sub for F7?

  18. #17

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    I haven't done the whole thing. I'm sure there are b5 sounds in there too.

  19. #18

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    There must be a Monk tune that does this .

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Cm6 G/B Bbmaj7

    So, G/B has the #11 and 13.... but is it a sub for F7?
    No, it's the V of Cm. The tune goes i-V, then i-V a tone down.

    Dm - % - A7 - %
    Cm - % - G7 - %

    Bb - % - Eb - %
    Em7b5 - A7 - Dm - (Db7)

    Chopin, innit.


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    No, it's the V of Cm. The tune goes i-V, then i-V a tone down.

    Dm - % - A7 - %
    Cm - % - G7 - %

    Bb - % - Eb - %
    Em7b5 - A7 - Dm - (Db7)

    Chopin, innit.

    That’s how I would normally play it, but there’s often more than one way to look at a progression.

    Also I don’t like G7, I think Jobim has G/B, but either works.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2019 at 03:22 AM.

  22. #21

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    So one good way of getting a melodic minor sound is to use the V triad of the Mel minor.

    So on Dm we use A
    On D7 we use E (Am right)
    On Bm7b5 we use A (Dm again)
    And on B7alt we use G (Cm so we can both be right haha)

    This is what I think of as a modern dominant. In that modern dominants often avoid one of the dominant guide tones (usually the third) for a less obvious, cadential sound. A lot of modern players seem to do this.

    So with that in mind, G/B becomes a type of B7alt voicing

    I doubt that’s what Jobim was thinking of, but it is a sound you can use. If it doesn’t sound cool enough, try adding an Eb to the G triad.

    I mean, you do this anyway, right, if you play V of Cm, It’s just a theoretical reframe....

  23. #22

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    Another way of looking at it is C Mel min has G7, F7 and B7 alt

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That’s how I would normally play it, but there’s often more than one way to look at a progression.

    Also I don’t like G7, I think Jobim has G/B, but either works.
    ever heard of a minor chord with a 6th in the bass?


  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    ever heard of a minor chord with a 6th in the bass?

    We. Don’t. Talk. About. Altered. scale. Enharmony.

    But sure one of those would do the same trick. Although the tritone is not what you would want if you were going for a less cadential sound.

    Bm7#5 would be a cooler choice. But I always hear that chord as Gadd9/B anyway.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    We. Don’t. Talk. About. Altered. scale. Enharmony.

    But sure one of those would do the same trick. Although the tritone is not what you would want if you were going for a less cadential sound.

    Bm7#5 would be a cooler choice. But I always hear that chord as Gadd9/B anyway.
    i .don't. understand. a. word. you're. saying.

    in bar 7 of insensitive i play: Bm7b5, Dm6/B, Bbmaj7/B. for solos i just play Bm like martino.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i .don't. understand. a. word. you're. saying.

    in bar 7 of insensitive i play: Bm7b5, Dm6/B, Bbmaj7/B. for solos i just play Bm like martino.
    Don’t do that. Yucky.

    #bossasnob

  28. #27

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    Christian, master of distraction!

    The question was if we knew any tunes that went V7#11 to 1. Probably there are quite a few if we allow a 7#11 to be a 7b5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft View Post
    There must be a Monk tune that does this .
    There's a thing called Bemsha Swing that has it every few bars. But it's not much of a tune :-)

    Any tune use V7 #11 resolving to I  ?-untitled-jpg

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i .don't. understand. a. word. you're. saying.
    I thought you meant that you can treat Bm7b5 as altered which you can, and sub it in for B7alt. (That’s a fruitful approach if you want to go down tat route.) It’s in the spelling:

    1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

    As opposed to

    1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7

    But it’s also a classic bop extension of a G7 chord. Barry and all of that. But then Fats Waller say G7+5 —-> B7+5. And B7–>C is super hip V-I sub that also sounds like the 1920s.

    And Pat playing Bm into Bb just shows it sounds good to go a little out and then in again if you can resolve. clearly

    But I think putting tritones as in more tritones = better as in whole tone scales, dim scales, 7b9 etc etc is a bebop functional vibe.

    If you take out all the tritones you get a softer more floating vibe. Obviously a lot of Jobims music has tritones in it, but in this case I think leaving the F out gives a different colour.

    It’s also that prog

    F#m7b5 Fm6 Em7 Eo7 Dm G7 C

    It’s nice sometimes if you have

    D/F# Fm9 C/E Eo7 etc

    But a good way to sound modern is to take the tritones out of altered dominants.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Christian, master of distraction!

    The question was if we knew any tunes that went V7#11 to 1. Probably there are quite a few if we allow a 7#11 to be a 7b5.



    There's a thing called Bemsha Swing that has it every few bars. But it's not much of a tune :-)

    Any tune use V7 #11 resolving to I  ?-untitled-jpg
    No 13

  31. #30

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    G/B as legit F7 resolving to I or F13(#11) > Bb

    F X Eb B D G > X Bb D G C E

    F X Eb B D G > X Bb X G D F

    F X Eb B D G > Bb X A C D G

    F X Eb B D G > Bb X G C F A

    F X Eb B D G > X X C D F Bb like this better F X Eb B D G > X X Eb A C# F > X X C D F Bb

    F X Eb B D G > Bb F A D G C

    F X Eb B D G > Bb F C F A D

    Not smart enough to reference song examples but I hope the voicings above demonstrate
    that it can resolve to I with reasonably musical results. No doubt, some voicings might present more
    challenges doing so than others.

  32. #31

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    I mean if you see a 7#11 as interchangeable with a 7b5 (I actually think older musicians did) there’s an absolute ton of tunes. For instance McCoy Tyner/Coltrane likely to think of F7#11 as a diminished half-whole chord. With an 8 note scale enharmony doesn’t really work. b5 and #11, who cares?

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I thought you meant that you can treat Bm7b5 as altered which you can, and sub it in for B7alt. (That’s a fruitful approach if you want to go down tat route.
    no, not at all. i play Bm7b5 in bar 7 and solo just Bm7. you seem to find it "yucky".

    otoh i do not like a B7alt there at all, so there . i do use the dom7+ relationships you mention a lot. like in stablemates C7+=Ab7+. but i'm not hearing bar 7 even remotely as V in Bb and wouldn't play it that way.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    no, not at all. i play Bm7b5 in bar 7 and solo just Bm7. you seem to find it "yucky".

    otoh i do not like a B7alt there at all, so there . i do use the dom7+ relationships you mention a lot. like in stablemates C7+=Ab7+. but i'm not hearing bar 7 even remotely as V in Bb and wouldn't play it that way.
    Sorry I was half joking. I think Bm7b5 sounds more jazzy jazz, and G/B is what Tom wrote. Take yer pick stylistically.

    But I do find Bm7b5 to Bbmaj7 to be a weak cadence. Too many common tones. G triad is a bit better at least there’s some contrary motion in there. For soloing purposes could probably play a straight F7alt —> Bb and sound great.

    Just drive your bebop truck through that delicate garden.

    (I know it’s against our religion, but sometimes a triad is the right sound...)

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Christian, master of distraction!

    The question was if we knew any tunes that went V7#11 to 1. Probably there are quite a few if we allow a 7#11 to be a 7b5.



    There's a thing called Bemsha Swing that has it every few bars. But it's not much of a tune :-)

    Any tune use V7 #11 resolving to I  ?-untitled-jpg
    i don't get it. what does a random leadsheet from yugoslavia prove? do you vouch for it#s correctness?

  36. #35

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    But a good way to sound modern is to take the tritones out of altered dominants.
    Brett Willmott's book "Complete Book of Harmony, Theory and Voicing" has a chapter on 4 note voicings
    (all drop 2 on middle 4 strings) with 3 extensions (9,11,13 of various colors) which leaves only one more note
    to steer towards basic function. Most comprehensive book on the subject of this structure representing that harmony
    that I'm aware.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sorry I was half joking. I think Bm7b5 sounds more jazzy jazz, and G/B is what Tom wrote. Take yer pick stylistically.

    But I do find Bm7b5 to Bbmaj7 to be a weak cadence. Too many common tones. G triad is a bit better at least there’s some contrary motion in there. For soloing purposes could probably play a straight F7alt —> Bb and sound great.

    Just drive your bebop truck through that delicate garden.

    (I know it’s against our religion, but sometimes a triad is the right sound...)
    tom jobim plays it im Bm and on "E/G#" in bar7 the most prominent notes are B and D.

    do forget your leadsheets for a second and listen:




    you hear those D notes loud and clear i hope?

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    b5 and #11, who cares?
    In practice, in context, not me.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    tom jobim plays it im Bm and on "E/G#" in bar7 the most prominent notes are B and D.

    do forget your leadsheets for a second and listen:




    you hear those D notes loud and clear i hope?
    Fair enough! The versions I heard sounded like a triad to me. (Might be that I missed the seventh but ended up liking the sound of the triad. It was a while back...)

    I can’t listen to them now (or any music atm) but I’ll take your word for it.

    EDIT - I listened to the first one and that is indeed a hefty D. I stand corrected haha. Still I’ll find a spurious reason why you are wrong, don’t worry. I’ll dig out the original recording I learned it from and see if I made a mistake.

    I didn’t learn Insenatez from a lead sheet. The RB has G7/B anyway iirc, so not sure what you are on about there .
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2019 at 03:18 PM.

  40. #39

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    Unless you are getting me confused with my worthy constituent mr ragman of course :-)

  41. #40

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    You could do worse :-)

  42. #41

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    Anyway, who needs fancy chords? Here's a pure vanilla version, no flake, not an altered sound in it...