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  1. #1

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    Trudgin‘ by Julian Lage is too much for me. Am I a pop guitarist? I love his playing, his tone and lots of his stuff and I really like those dark chords in this song, but this soloing???




    „Jimmy Guiffre’s “Trudgin’” triggers a mysterious lope through the creative depths of Lage’s imagination. Nasty chords and fluttering digressions test the strength of the guitarist’s portentous arrangement.“ review from „the arts fuse“.

    Help me understand this!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    You don’t have to understand something to enjoy it

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You don’t have to understand something to enjoy it
    I think he means the he is not enjoying it, but is looking for justification based in understanding .. Which this time around also eludes him

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    I think he means the he is not enjoying it, but is looking for justification based in understanding .. Which this time around also eludes him
    Hehe. Yes, I‘m far from joy listening to this, honestly. And I really love Julian Lage (okay, his music ) otherwise.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    I think he means the he is not enjoying it, but is looking for justification based in understanding .. Which this time around also eludes him
    You don’t have to understand something to not enjoy it.

  7. #6

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    Many years ago a girl I knew pulled a collection of Sylvia Plath's poems from my shelves & expressed surprise that any man could understand them.

    It had never occurred to me that I was supposed to - I said I just liked the way they sounded when I read them aloud.

    The wrong answer.

    I like the music tho'.... not sure which chords are the 'Nasty' ones ?
    Last edited by dot75; 09-08-2019 at 05:27 AM.

  8. #7

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    You know the older I get the less interested I am in understanding art, the more interested I am in having an emotional reaction. Which may change on repeated exposure.

    I think the emotional reaction is the only important one in art, everything afterwards is retroactive justification.

    If I really like something as a musician I can always dig into it later, maybe find a reason why. That’s analysis and it’s hard work.

    I like this recording. Lage often talks about Evan Parker and Derek Bailey. You can hear the influence here....

  9. #8

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    Stefan,
    I get the impression that the you think you're supposed to like this because it's "Jazz", and if you don't there must be something you don't understand.

    Listen to and play what appeals to you. You are not required to like something just because it's labeled "Jazz". The Jazz police are not coming for you just because you don't appreciate certain styles.

    I certainly don't get any enjoyment from this video at all. It's not something I would listen to for pleasure. However, my taste may change in the future.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue View Post
    Stefan,
    I get the impression that the you think you're supposed to like this because it's "Jazz", and if you don't there must be something you don't understand.

    Listen to and play what appeals to you. You are not required to like something just because it's labeled "Jazz". The Jazz police are not coming for you just because you don't appreciate certain styles.

    I certainly don't get any enjoyment from this video at all. It's not something I would listen to for pleasure. However, my taste may change in the future.
    Hey, no I‘m supposed to like it since it‘s played by Julian Lage and it‘s true, I don‘t understand why a virtuous player like him plays something weird like that. And I‘m used to hear music for pleasure.

  11. #10
    I guess he just got through binge watching Longmire or something. :-)

    When I was very young, basically I had to UNDERSTAND things musically, especially on a melodic/harmonic level et cetera, to really get into them, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I didn't really get anything as much from just pure groove, basic tone, or emotional content etc. I was kind of oblivious to the raw, gutbucket aesthetic on most things for example. I never understood how anyone could LOVE a tune merely based on the great tone of the snare drum etc.

    If you want to be a nerd and analyze, it's tension/release in a basic ABA type structure. (Basically all about the drums , and everything else is extra credit.) :-)

    It's a groove tune, and harmonic and melodic is kind of secondary. It's very "in " in the beginning, in terms of groove and everyone being locked down to a basic straightahead feel . The middle section with the solo goes "out" rhythmically in bass and guitar at exactly the same time that it's basically going "out" harmonically. Then, back "in" and locked down rhythmically like the beginning.

    All about the drums and the feel. More groove-based, and gut-level raw angst than melodic anything. All that guitar stuff is just filler fluff on top. :-)

    (Takes nerd hat off.)

    Watch a couple of seasons of Longmire.

  12. #11

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    I don't understand much when it comes to jazz, but I like a lot of it, including that song.

  13. #12

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    I think it sounds like a frank Zappa song

  14. #13

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    Yeah, I love his tone! His improvising, not so much! After 1:25, it's like why did you start f'up with that fusion sounding shizzle??!

  15. #14
    Yep, his tone is fantastic as usual, a bit more dirty than before, it‘s the Gretsch.

  16. #15

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    Man, I like that. And that tone...drool.

    It's just a nasty blues. He's playing "noisy." Its atmosphere.

    Some of it is very reminiscent of Jim Campilongo.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 09-07-2019 at 03:21 PM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  17. #16

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    I love it too. Great players can bring this off.

  18. #17

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    Sometimes you have gwarr clang twang boing.

    I like that Lage can transcend nice guitar playing and deconstruct it a bit....

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    I love it too. Great players can bring this off.
    Yes, I should have stipulated in my previous response that as much as I like it, it's definitely not the kind of thing I ever could (or would) try to pull off. But the really great players seem to be able to just randomly smack a guitar and cool sounds come out.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sometimes you have gwarr clang twang boing.

    When you put it like that it sounds like Monk.

  20. #19

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    hmm.."understand art" Not sure thats part of the process..art in all its aspects has been asked the same basic question.."What is it" and the "hip" artist may reply..what would you like it to be?

    to me art that goes beyond the lines is expressing its true nature..a confined structure is just that..something in a prison..so to speak..

    Miles Davis-like him or not-evolved at every phase of his life and brought new life into stagnet structures..in fact removed the structures altogether...imagine driving on a freeway with out lane markers..thats a bit scary even to thik about it..as radical as Kind of Blue was in the day..Bitches Brew by comparison was beyond defined terms.."is that jazz?"..what if its not?

    the question you may ask.."will I understand it?" may beg the reply --Only if you want to!.. and that may take time..much like a Zen Koan..is it really about solving a puzzle..when there is no puzzle
    play well ...
    wolf

  21. #20

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    This seems like the type of stuff you can get away with only after you’ve established yourself. The audience will cut you some slack. But I have to say, it’s pretty unlikeable.

  22. #21

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    He is increasingly popular with The Gear Page people. Perhaps he will provide some comfort for those who were disappointed with the new Tool album.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sometimes you have gwarr clang twang boing.
    I know, right? My problem is I sometimes boing when I should gwarr.
    Best regards, k

  24. #23

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    I'm surprised so many people don't like this. It's really not that weird. It's a guy playing some skronky stuff on a minor chord vamp. Nobody owns Rain Dogs?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  25. #24

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    I mean, if someone is going to cover some Giuffre, and you are a player who honors history/tradition, it's almost obligatory to expand on the original free jazz and abstract concepts that Giufffre and his groups were pioneers in. Otherwise, why would you even do a cover 61 years later unless you give it the respect it deserves? Lage really "gets" it. Remember, Jim Hall was a Giuffre alumnus....


  26. #25

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    I found it hard to dance to it, unlike the old 30's/40's swing. I found it hard to bop to, or pop to; I could groove with it - a little, but maybe the material just didn’t provide Julian the best launch pad. Not something I'd listen to more than once.

    And to think, there was a time I intently listened to Albert Ayler.

    AKA

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff View Post
    Trudgin‘ by Julian Lage is too much for me. Am I a pop guitarist? I love his playing, his tone and lots of his stuff and I really like those dark chords in this song, but this soloing???




    „Jimmy Guiffre’s “Trudgin’” triggers a mysterious lope through the creative depths of Lage’s imagination. Nasty chords and fluttering digressions test the strength of the guitarist’s portentous arrangement.“ review from „the arts fuse“.

    Help me understand this!
    Last edited by AKA; 09-08-2019 at 02:09 AM.

  27. #26

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    Good explanation about Jazz:


  28. #27
    That’s cool. The more I hear it and the more we‘re talking about the more I like at least a part of it. And I guess Julian‘s got a good sense of humor...

    It‘s right to leave the usual ways when it comes to abstract stuff like this. My point is my own restriction on guitar music. I like dissonances but only in an harmonic context. If free and bizarre Improvisation turns out to be just noise I‘m gone.

    But some parts are really cool and his tone and dynamic playin at the beginning and the end is breathtaking as usual.

  29. #28

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    A day at the State Bureau of Music Classification

    -Ben, where am I supposed to file this recording? I don't think it's "Hip-Hop"...

    -If there's guitar, I always file it under "Country".

    -I know Ben, but no one is singing.

    -Really...how bizarre...I bet, there a double bass, right?

    -Yeah, thanks man, the double bass is a dead giveaway. It goes under "Jazz"... of course...I should have known...

    - Hold your horses, son. Never file anything under "jazz" if it's popular. Really important.

    -C'mon, Ben. No one is singing, how could it be popular?

    -Ok, "Jazz" it is then...Too bad, we haven't filed anything under "Country" this week...We have to show some progress...Are you sure it's not "Country", the boys aren't wearing Stetson hats or something?

    -Sorry Ben, how about "Progressive Rock"?

    -Martha says we can't use that genre anymore. Coffee?

    -No thanks, Ben. Got a heap of music on my desk that has to be classified before 5 pm....Like this, I'm not sure if this is music, listen.... just noise...

    -Martha says; whenever in doubt if the sound could be referred to as music, we have to put it under "Jazz". Apparently the paragraph was instituted already in 1959. It should have been revisited a long time ago, but nobody cares.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    A day at the State Bureau of Music Classification

    -Ben, where am I supposed to file this recording? I don't think it's "Hip-Hop"...

    -If there's guitar, I always file it under "Country".

    -I know Ben, but no one is singing.

    -Really...how bizarre...I bet, there a double bass, right?

    -Yeah, thanks man, the double bass is a dead giveaway. It goes under "Jazz"... of course...I should have known...

    - Hold your horses, son. Never file anything under "jazz" if it's popular. Really important.

    -C'mon, Ben. No one is singing, how could it be popular?

    -Ok, "Jazz" it is then...Too bad, we haven't filed anything under "Country" this week...We have to show some progress...Are you sure it's not "Country", the boys aren't wearing Stetson hats or something?

    -Sorry Ben, how about "Progressive Rock"?

    -Martha says we can't use that genre anymore. Coffee?

    -No thanks, Ben. Got a heap of music on my desk that has to be classified before 5 pm....Like this, I'm not sure if this is music, listen.... just noise...

    -Martha says; whenever in doubt if the sound could be referred to as music, we have to put it under "Jazz". Apparently the paragraph was instituted already in 1959. It should have been revisited a long time ago, but nobody cares.
    That’s pretty much it haha

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I'm surprised so many people don't like this. It's really not that weird. It's a guy playing some skronky stuff on a minor chord vamp. Nobody owns Rain Dogs?
    Yeah I certainly don’t find it unusual for Lage either.

  32. #31

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    I’m not much of a free jazz kind of guy. I like the trad stuff, and the more melodic side of everything else, especially if it has a great vamp (Dave Brubeck’s “Out of Time” is heavy in my rotation right now). I guess the reason I find this particular cover so every is that Lage is provided the tension and dissonance of several different instruments all by himself. So without the contrast in pitches, timbres, and tones of multiple instruments, it seems like something got lost in the mix. To me this is the Jazz equivalent of some of the weirder stuff by Steve Vai; I can recognize the talent and genius even if it isn’t particularly enjoyable to my ear. I wouldn’t buy it, or choose it, but if it came up in a random playlist I would be tempted to skip to the next track if I had control 8n a group setting, and would almost certainly do so if solo in my house or car.
    Redeemed, Husband, Father, Veteran. Thankful for all four!

    I play a customized Godin 5th Avenue, Córdoba GK Studio, and a Hamer Korina. I also play a Kala uBass on occasion

  33. #32

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    Stefan -

    Sometimes I don't understand jazz
    That's because it's not really free jazz at all, it's a not very good attempt at extreme outside stuff by someone who doesn't normally play it. Real free jazz is a mindset all to its own and Julian hasn't really got that.

    This is more like the real thing, love it or hate it.



    And this could have been the most awful hash... but it isn't.


  34. #33
    There 's a whole genre of modern jazz that sounds like that. Modern improvisational ideas, lots of dissonance, out playing, some free stuff. It's a matter of taste. I thought Lage Lunds last cd was a bit like that too..

    Not one of my most favorite players, Julian Lage, but just the passion for the guitar and the creativity are enough for me to enjoy his playing. He's also done a remarkable job arranging and composing on some of his cds..

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You know the older I get the less interested I am in understanding art, the more interested I am in having an emotional reaction. Which may change on repeated exposure.

    I think the emotional reaction is the only important one in art, everything afterwards is retroactive justification.

    If I really like something as a musician I can always dig into it later, maybe find a reason why. That’s analysis and it’s hard work.

    I like this recording. Lage often talks about Evan Parker and Derek Bailey. You can hear the influence here....
    I agree with most of what you are saying here. I think the emotional side is what draws people to music in the first place. I certainly didn't take up guitar because I was fascinated in learning how the whole tone scale can work for dominant chord substitutions. It was because something hit me in the gut and I needed to pursue that feeling again and again. If emotion isn't the dominant factor then why not just become engineers, biologists or math wizards since there are more than enough interesting intellectual problems to be investigated and understood in those realms.

    That said, when I was younger I did listen to a great deal of music I did not like (emotionally) because it was "good for me".... That meant listening to free jazz, 20th Century classical composers and even Monk. Over time, I did come to like most of it - Monk especially. I think this is because your aesthetic sense and inner emotional world is something that changes and develops if you challenge it. I now hear the emotion in the music that I didn't recognize at an earlier stage of life. It is a hermeneutic process where you listen to something, think this is terrible, but then you grab onto some thread in the music that excites you and brings you back. After some more listens you hear something else and so on...eventually you enter a larger world where stuff you disliked starts to move you in unexpected ways.

    I remember at 12 or so, going to see Ed Bickert, Don Thompson and Terry Clarke in Toronto. They started blazing away on some tunes, trading solos etc and I just could not hear or relate to what was going on. How did they know where they were in the tune? Where is the tune? I understood the ballads but that was about it. Still that got me hooked on Ed and I listened to the records (hating a lot of it) but eventually I understood and could relate to it emotionally and intellectually. Glad I did that work.

    All this to say we might not want to overdraw distinctions between the emotional and intellectual side since they do relate but just in complicated ways.d

  36. #35

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    I like it very much, what I don't like is the mix. Guitar is too loud, bass too low... but that's highly subjective like everything.

    --- The ultimate answer to almost all guitar questions: "Practice more!" ---

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff View Post
    Trudgin‘ by Julian Lage is too much for me. Am I a pop guitarist? I love his playing, his tone and lots of his stuff and I really like those dark chords in this song, but this soloing???




    „Jimmy Guiffre’s “Trudgin’” triggers a mysterious lope through the creative depths of Lage’s imagination. Nasty chords and fluttering digressions test the strength of the guitarist’s portentous arrangement.“ review from „the arts fuse“.

    Help me understand this!
    This is the definition of contemporary jazz music in one clip. It sounds like something unreleased from Bill Frisell’s ”Lookout For Hope”. The only thing we have to understand in this case is the power of free artistry. There are certain frames to know about, but in the end it’s up to you how to treat them.
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo View Post
    I agree with most of what you are saying here. I think the emotional side is what draws people to music in the first place. I certainly didn't take up guitar because I was fascinated in learning how the whole tone scale can work for dominant chord substitutions. It was because something hit me in the gut and I needed to pursue that feeling again and again. If emotion isn't the dominant factor then why not just become engineers, biologists or math wizards since there are more than enough interesting intellectual problems to be investigated and understood in those realms.

    That said, when I was younger I did listen to a great deal of music I did not like (emotionally) because it was "good for me".... That meant listening to free jazz, 20th Century classical composers and even Monk. Over time, I did come to like most of it - Monk especially. I think this is because your aesthetic sense and inner emotional world is something that changes and develops if you challenge it. I now hear the emotion in the music that I didn't recognize at an earlier stage of life. It is a hermeneutic process where you listen to something, think this is terrible, but then you grab onto some thread in the music that excites you and brings you back. After some more listens you hear something else and so on...eventually you enter a larger world where stuff you disliked starts to move you in unexpected ways.

    I remember at 12 or so, going to see Ed Bickert, Don Thompson and Terry Clarke in Toronto. They started blazing away on some tunes, trading solos etc and I just could not hear or relate to what was going on. How did they know where they were in the tune? Where is the tune? I understood the ballads but that was about it. Still that got me hooked on Ed and I listened to the records (hating a lot of it) but eventually I understood and could relate to it emotionally and intellectually. Glad I did that work.

    All this to say we might not want to overdraw distinctions between the emotional and intellectual side since they do relate but just in complicated ways.d
    Yes I think as soon as if posted that post your points above occurred to me.

    But I think that’s true of loads of stuff. I mean how much did you like your first beer?

    And in general with, say, food, the more cuisines you are exposed to, and the more flavours, the more open you become.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    A day at the State Bureau of Music Classification

    -Ben, where am I supposed to file this recording? I don't think it's "Hip-Hop"...

    -If there's guitar, I always file it under "Country".

    -I know Ben, but no one is singing.

    -Really...how bizarre...I bet, there a double bass, right?

    -Yeah, thanks man, the double bass is a dead giveaway. It goes under "Jazz"... of course...I should have known...

    - Hold your horses, son. Never file anything under "jazz" if it's popular. Really important.

    -C'mon, Ben. No one is singing, how could it be popular?

    -Ok, "Jazz" it is then...Too bad, we haven't filed anything under "Country" this week...We have to show some progress...Are you sure it's not "Country", the boys aren't wearing Stetson hats or something?

    -Sorry Ben, how about "Progressive Rock"?

    -Martha says we can't use that genre anymore. Coffee?

    -No thanks, Ben. Got a heap of music on my desk that has to be classified before 5 pm....Like this, I'm not sure if this is music, listen.... just noise...

    -Martha says; whenever in doubt if the sound could be referred to as music, we have to put it under "Jazz". Apparently the paragraph was instituted already in 1959. It should have been revisited a long time ago, but nobody cares.
    Good one!
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  40. #39

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    Not one of my favorite Lage tunes. Just listening, it sounds like he's modulating between minor and major.

  41. #40

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    very nice..would love the see Lage in this setting . more Welly..

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You know the older I get the less interested I am in understanding art, the more interested I am in having an emotional reaction. Which may change on repeated exposure.

    I think the emotional reaction is the only important one in art, everything afterwards is retroactive justification.

    If I really like something as a musician I can always dig into it later, maybe find a reason why. That’s analysis and it’s hard work.

    I like this recording. Lage often talks about Evan Parker and Derek Bailey. You can hear the influence here....


    I would change a word 'emotional' to 'direct or unconventional' (as opposed to 'preoccupied, preconceived, too concious)..

    liking is not purely emotional thing... one just has to trust one's sense of truth, one's perception....

    I think perception of art (as well as creation) is much about the courage of being yourself... we do not notice it in everyday life... one has to have good instinct not to be caught in the trap

    PS
    I do not like the word 'emotional' becasue in everyday usage it oversimplifies things too much... (People tend to say 'music is more about emition' but I do not thing music is more emotional that literature for example... I think it is superficial... like you know 'good wallpaper can be emotional' but 'good artistic painting is not emotional' - it is mind, soul... )

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff View Post
    Trudgin‘ by Julian Lage is too much for me. Am I a pop guitarist? I love his playing, his tone and lots of his stuff and I really like those dark chords in this song, but this soloing???
    If you enjoy something, try to optionally understand it or just listen zillion times, and look for similar or more... Searching, listening and remaining open will help you enjoy more and more an wider spectrum of music and enjoying something what you definitely did not enjoyed before. Patience is inevitable, investing a lot of enjoyed time too.

    ***

    I think make (force!) enjoy something (either by understanding, or in any other way) is not the way.

    (It is not even a minor problem if you do not enjoy Lage's one or more performance, or even his whole work of life. Maybe he also do not enjoy it to relisten :-), but it seems he enjoyed it to play, because he is continuously smiling, which is at least should make us unsure, the music supposed to be dark...)

  44. #43

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    Like and appreciate what you can and leave the rest be. You get what you get at a certain point in time. Not all music is for each and every individual, nothing wrong with neither person nor music.

    I'm not keen on that performance. I'm not sure what it is exactly. I think perhaps Lage's tendency to go for overt beauty make him pull the punches when taking it out and going for angular. It feels somehow academic to me. ymmv, imho, etc

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    because he is continuously smiling, which is at least should make us unsure, the music supposed to be dark...)
    I find it a bit creepy.

    See also Brian Cox.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    he is continuously smiling, which is at least should make us unsure
    "If you can't convince them, confuse them!"

    (This is what performing artists and politicians have in common.)

    See also Tony Blair

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxsss View Post
    very nice..would love the see Lage in this setting . more Welly..
    for awhile there I thought this was a "shreds" video....

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    "If you can't convince them, confuse them!"

    (This is what performing artists and politicians have in common.)

    See also Tony Blair
    I am glad my diplomatic message went through about that particular performance :-)

  49. #48

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    I liked it. Do I get a cookie?
    Build bridges, not walls.

  50. #49

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    Here's my take on it



    I go splodonk towards the end.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Here's my take on it



    I go splodonk towards the end.
    I gladiff your splodonkierey. Vootie!
    Best regards, k