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  1. #51

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    Yes, the dancers said the same thing about bebop* needless to say... in a sense they were right... jazz like tango nuevo and Bossa nova became an art music. (Desifinado’s Portuguese lyric is a response to how people said Jobim destroyed the samba with his ‘wrong notes’)

    Just like Bach...

    (Although I have heard stories of enthusiastic English eccentrics dancing the sarabande at Bach cello recitals. Not sure how I’d deal with that haha. I like people dancing at my gigs though.)

    * I’m aware many boppers would contest this including Barry, but there’s no doubt jazz declined as a social dance music after the war.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Bossa Nova lives!



    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  4. #53

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  5. #54

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  6. #55

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    Last week I replied in wrong thread. Why on Earth two similar threads with similar titles and similar content? Now I post my one week old reply here instead:

    ”No styles of music are dead. They need each other to survive. Bossa nova is samba music dressed in jazz clothes. Without jazz music, bossa nova would’ve been just samba music. Like someone other said, there’s no danger of mixing apples and oranges. It’s still music, right
    ?”
    Last edited by Bbmaj7#5#9; 08-27-2019 at 01:18 PM.
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    In Argentine in the 50s there was a strong opinion that Astor Piazzolla killed the Tango. The great composer and founder of Tango nuevo said; "The dancers are my worst enemies". He wrote concert music not dance music. Piazzolla was a brilliant instrumentalist, not a singer.

    Tango Nuevo is a mix of influences; Classical music, Jazz, Latin and European folk music. World music. In the 70s he plays with jazz authorities like Quincy Jones and Gerry Mulligan. In the 80s Grace Jones turned Piazzolla's composition Libertango into dance music and it became a world hit. At this time the dancers became Piazzollas best friends.

    Jazz didn't kill the Tango and neither did Piazzolla. On the contrary, Piazzolla made the Argentine Tango and the Bandoneon immortal with good help from Jazz and classical music. There is a strong parallel to the development of the Bossa Nova. One is Samba the other is Tango, but the melting pot and the ingredients are not that different. It all happened in South America in the 50s when local music was blended with traditional European music, North American music, exceptional musical skills and a spoonful of passion.

    Dizzy Gillespie is speaking through this lady's horn:


    Guitaristic approach. Incredible performance

    Hi, J,
    I don't think Dizzy would agree, nor would I, with your assessment of the trumpet players chops in the first video in comparison to his playing. Her playing was cold, lifeless and academic, in my opinion. However, Stephanie's guitar playing, in the second video, is first-rate. She plays with great style, feeling and execution. What's the deal with the all-girl orchestra in the first video? Who are they? Good playing . . . Marinero

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Hi, J,
    I don't think Dizzy would agree, nor would I, with your assessment of the trumpet players chops in the first video in comparison to his playing. Her playing was cold, lifeless and academic, in my opinion. However, Stephanie's guitar playing, in the second video, is first-rate. She plays with great style, feeling and execution. What's the deal with the all-girl orchestra in the first video? Who are they? Good playing . . . Marinero
    Tine Tingh Helseth is a classical musician, "one of the foremost trumpet soloists of our time", she's got chops all right. I don't think she is used to be compared with a Jazz trumpet player and I don't know if she would appreciate it. I hope she wouldn't mind, because she is described as "an artist who challenges the boundaries of genre". Tine has worked with many world leading orchestras, (this particular concert was celebrating womens right to vote, which would explain the unbalanced gender representation).

    My purpose was to highlight the fusion between classical music and jazz, here represented by the composer Astor Piazzolla, and the sound when interpreted on lead trumpet.

    "Jazz" means a whole lot of different things to different people. We often like to associate it with improvisation, but there are many genres that contain improvisation that neither qualify, nor claim to be jazz. And I bet there's jazz without improvisation. Parts of a solo, or even the entire solo, could be written and rehearsed (i.e not improvised). Most of the time the audience couldn't tell. -When does it matter and to whom? I guess that Tine's solo is written and rehearsed, that would be the common classical approach. The solo is performed with precision, yet soulful and lyrical.

    I'm influenced by Dizzy's compositions, the sound of the music he wrote. He didn't bop with a silencer all the time. Con Alma was written 1954, incorporating Latin rhythm in jazz a few years ahead of the Bossa Nova craze:


  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Tine Tingh Helseth is a classical musician, "one of the foremost trumpet soloists of our time", she's got chops all right. I don't think she is used to be compared with a Jazz trumpet player and I don't know if she would appreciate it. I hope she wouldn't mind, because she is described as "an artist who challenges the boundaries of genre". Tine has worked with many world leading orchestras, (this particular concert was celebrating womens right to vote, which would explain the unbalanced gender representation).

    My purpose was to highlight the fusion between classical music and jazz, here represented by the composer Astor Piazzolla, and the sound when interpreted on lead trumpet.

    "Jazz" means a whole lot of different things to different people. We often like to associate it with improvisation, but there are many genres that contain improvisation that neither qualify, nor claim to be jazz. And I bet there's jazz without improvisation. Parts of a solo, or even the entire solo, could be written and rehearsed (i.e not improvised). Most of the time the audience couldn't tell. -When does it matter and to whom? I guess that Tine's solo is written and rehearsed, that would be the common classical approach. The solo is performed with precision, yet soulful and lyrical.

    I'm influenced by Dizzy's compositions, the sound of the music he wrote. He didn't bop with a silencer all the time. Con Alma was written 1954, incorporating Latin rhythm in jazz a few years ahead of the Bossa Nova craze:

    Yeah Piazzolla isn’t jazz... or at least isn’t exactly jazz. Part of the interesting penumbra of musics that intersect with jazz but aren’t quite in the category.

    Jazz musicians played with him, like Barney Kessell, but his music has one foot in the concert hall. A classical take on it is appropriate. He wrote scores.

    Bit of course Piazzolla was also a tango musician through and through....

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah Piazzolla isn’t jazz... or at least isn’t exactly jazz. Part of the interesting penumbra of musics that intersect with jazz but aren’t quite in the category.

    Jazz musicians played with him, like Barney Kessell, but his music has one foot in the concert hall. A classical take on it is appropriate. He wrote scores.

    Bit of course Piazzolla was also a tango musician through and through....
    Yes, Piazzolla did tango gigs for a living throughout his career. (His performing career took off in NYC, where he was playing in different restaurant orchestras). He was a performing artist for many years before he went to France to study classical composition. It took a long time before he became accepted in the concert halls, for him it was a dream come true.

    Piazzolla erases the boundaries between "jazz" and classical music. I love it. And it reminds me of the great Broadway composers who were educated in classical music and wrote the evergreens that later became Jazz standards. It makes me wonder about the differences, if there are any differences and if so, what these may be....drums and base? vocals/lyrics? instrument settings? solos/impros? venue? freedom? or just the scores? (Big band Jazz is documented in scores too)... After all, "Jazz" may just be a marketing/target segment pop concept.

    I also realize that Libertango has become a "new" standard even though It was written recently, just 45 years ago

  11. #60

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    Yeah I mean ultimately there’s just music, right?

    But I never feel comfortable describing various Latin American African diaspora musics as jazz, and certainly not tango, Nuevo or otherwise. Tango predates jazz for one thing...

    there is certainly a jazz influence in Piazolla (night in Tunisia in the bridge of Libertango anyone?) but it is a jazz influence brought into tango, just as jazz musicians might bring a tango influence into American jazz.

    And would US jazz musicians get the feel of Piazolla’s music right away? No... they need training and even then it will never be like a musician born in Argentina.

    from interviews it seems Piazolla was always balancing the limitations but authentic feel of tango musicians against the virtuosity but lack of tango feel of classical and jazz players. The former could get the feel and understood the ornaments and effects, but couldn’t deal with the complexity; the latter vice versa.

    I’d feel equally uncomfortable describing Choro or samba as jazz... or ragtime for that matter. Or show music of the early 20th century....

    Bossa obviously again has that jazz influence, and overlaps.. but I don’t feel it is jazz itself.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah I mean ultimately there’s just music, right?

    But I never feel comfortable describing various Latin American African diaspora musics as jazz, and certainly not tango, Nuevo or otherwise. Tango predates jazz for one thing...

    there is certainly a jazz influence in Piazolla (night in Tunisia in the bridge of Libertango anyone?) but it is a jazz influence brought into tango, just as jazz musicians might bring a tango influence into American jazz.

    And would US jazz musicians get the feel of Piazolla’s music right away? No... they need training and even then it will never be like a musician born in Argentina.

    from interviews it seems Piazolla was always balancing the limitations but authentic feel of tango musicians against the virtuosity but lack of tango feel of classical and jazz players. The former could get the feel and understood the ornaments and effects, but couldn’t deal with the complexity; the latter vice versa.

    I’d feel equally uncomfortable describing Choro or samba as jazz... or ragtime for that matter. Or show music of the early 20th century....

    Bossa obviously again has that jazz influence, and overlaps.. but I don’t feel it is jazz itself.
    Right, Jazz is Afro-American music, but it comes in many shapes. Guys like Jerome Kern, Victor Young, Hoagy Carmichael were American but not Afro. Victor Young embarked on a career as a concert violinist with the Warsaw Philharmonic and later graduated from the Warsaw Conservatory.

    "Autumn Leaves" one of the most popular standards around here was composed by Joseph Kosma of Hungary. Nothing Afro-American about that.

    So, these composers got associated with Jazz because Afro-American musicians played their songs in a certain fashion and people got dancing feet and did the Jive.

    Tango is music associated with the Tango rhythm, Bossa is music associated with the Samba rhythm and every dance that got hip got its own music, Rumba, Mambo, Square dance, Line dance, Minuet, Wiener Walz, Disco dance etc...

    From the 20s and on the Afro-Americans did Swing dances like Jitterbug, Lindy-hop and Jive. The music was called Jazz. Now we're stuck with Hip-hop for the last 30 years. Ain't nobody dancing no more... save for the pole dance.

    Stan Getz promoted the Jazz-Samba. He was an American with Ukrainian roots. Piazzollas grandfather moved from Italy to Argentine, Astor moved to NYC, later he stayed in Italy for a while and wrote Libertango. The mix of influences make things happen.

  13. #62

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    Hi, Jcat,
    My only point in regards to Helseth's playing was that she's not a Jazzer . . . she's Classical, ergo to compare her playing to Dizzy is not a good comparison. And, it has nothing to do with improvisation but rather her "sound." I am both a Jazzer and Classically trained musician. Her sound is clear, consise and her technique flawless. However, when comparing the warmth of trumpet players like Miles, Chet Baker, Randy Brecker, Roy Hargrove and, of course, Wynton Marsalis--a true hybrid, she exists in another world. No big deal but I thought using her as an example didn't work other than that she played the music. Most average classical players, in my opinion, lack the warmth and personality of an average Jazzer. I think it's in the head . . . since they(Classical) usually are better trained technically. But . . . music is more than black dots on paper. Interesting videos, though J. Thanks. Good playing . . . Marinero

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Hi, Jcat,
    My only point in regards to Helseth's playing was that she's not a Jazzer . . . she's Classical, ergo to compare her playing to Dizzy is not a good comparison. And, it has nothing to do with improvisation but rather her "sound." I am both a Jazzer and Classically trained musician. Her sound is clear, consise and her technique flawless. However, when comparing the warmth of trumpet players like Miles, Chet Baker, Randy Brecker, Roy Hargrove and, of course, Wynton Marsalis--a true hybrid, she exists in another world. No big deal but I thought using her as an example didn't work other than that she played the music. Most average classical players, in my opinion, lack the warmth and personality of an average Jazzer. I think it's in the head . . . since they(Classical) usually are better trained technically. But . . . music is more than black dots on paper. Interesting videos, though J. Thanks. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Hi Marinero,
    Point taken, Like Christian I hear "A Night In Tunisia" in "Libertango". Then I associate to the composer; Dizzy Gillespie. It's actually hard not to when Libertango is played on Trumpet. Other than that I really like Tines tone.

    Here's Dominick Farinacci with a slightly more a jazzy approach for you. There's a Vibraphone too, and some nice improvisations.


  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Right, Jazz is Afro-American music, but it comes in many shapes. Guys like Jerome Kern, Victor Young, Hoagy Carmichael were American but not Afro. Victor Young embarked on a career as a concert violinist with the Warsaw Philharmonic and later graduated from the Warsaw Conservatory.

    "Autumn Leaves" one of the most popular standards around here was composed by Joseph Kosma of Hungary. Nothing Afro-American about that.

    So, these composers got associated with Jazz because Afro-American musicians played their songs in a certain fashion and people got dancing feet and did the Jive.

    Tango is music associated with the Tango rhythm, Bossa is music associated with the Samba rhythm and every dance that got hip got its own music, Rumba, Mambo, Square dance, Line dance, Minuet, Wiener Walz, Disco dance etc...

    From the 20s and on the Afro-Americans did Swing dances like Jitterbug, Lindy-hop and Jive. The music was called Jazz. Now we're stuck with Hip-hop for the last 30 years. Ain't nobody dancing no more... save for the pole dance.

    Stan Getz promoted the Jazz-Samba. He was an American with Ukrainian roots. Piazzollas grandfather moved from Italy to Argentine, Astor moved to NYC, later he stayed in Italy for a while and wrote Libertango. The mix of influences make things happen.
    And of course lest we forget jazz has always been a mix of influences. There is no ‘pure jazz.’

  16. #65

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    Rock & Roll killed Bossa Nova and I got proof:

    Elvis is jumping the shark