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  1. #51

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    I’ll also play Dm7b5, G13b9, Cm7.

    I like the cool voice leading from the 13b9 to the min7, that’s what makes it work for me.

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  3. #52

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    Off the top of me head

    Wes plays C dominant/mix on the C7 chord in caravan....



    That’s a fairly pronounced one lol.

    I think both takes of I Found a New Baby with Charlie Christian/Benny Goodman feature him playing F#s on the A7 (song is in Dm/F.) I remember going ‘uh?’ when I transcribed that.

    I remember seeing something in Cannonballs solo on Milestones - need to get back to you. Basically he plays Am7 D7 into Gm, superimposes a II-V-I on the G Dorian.

    (Probably everyone plays b13 into minor now cos that’s the way they were taught when they played pseudo music at jazz school. Me too. BORING!)
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-03-2019 at 05:00 PM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I do this a lot on a tune like Invitation, i.e. put a rootless 13b9 between those descending minor chords, sounds cool. Pretty sure I got this from listening to Peter Bernstein.

    e.g. Bm, E13b9, Am.

    7x777x
    x5666x
    5x555x
    That’s a classic Pete move....

    Here’s how he does a turnaround Rhythm Changes - the first chord is the upbeat

    11 x 11 11 9 x
    10 x 10 10 10 x
    9 x 9 9 7 x
    8 x 8 8 8 x
    x 6 7 7 7 x
    6 x 5 5 6
    But really it’s all just a riff on a descending second inversion major triad with a bit of contrary motion added in

  5. #54

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    For me, dom7 is about dissonance/tension. Minor 2nd intervals happen, your ear needs to deal with it in jazz.

  6. #55

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  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Off the top of me head

    Wes plays C dominant/mix on the C7 chord in caravan....



    That’s a fairly pronounced one lol.

    I think both takes of I Found a New Baby with Charlie Christian/Benny Goodman feature him playing F#s on the A7 (song is in Dm/F.) I remember going ‘uh?’ when I transcribed that.

    I remember seeing something in Cannonballs solo on Milestones - need to get back to you. Basically he plays Am7 D7 into Gm, superimposes a II-V-I on the G Dorian.

    (Probably everyone plays b13 into minor now cos that’s the way they were taught when they played pseudo music at jazz school. Me too. BORING!)
    i'll check out the CC. the other two examples are not very convincing tbh. caravan is turned into a blues. pls note that as soon as we're approaching the Fm the A naturals dissapear. and milestones isn't even in minor. milestones is in F. cannonballs move with the F# over Am is rather common. mobley and many others do it on the Am of speak low as well. but the happy "dorian" minor is a completely different animal from "real" minor. you know that.

    i was hoping for real minor examples like yesterdays, if i should lose you etc. wes does indeed sometimes play a nat13 on the VI7 chord to the II chord (satin doll, bridge of unit7) but it's again basically a reharm, making the III-VI a II-V one step above. it's a similar move to the mentioned speak low one.
    i'm in doubt that you could find an actual example of wes playing a nat13 into real minor.

    btw minority actually has a nat 13 in the melody. but even that is more an exercise in II V than an actual minor tune...

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I’ll also play Dm7b5, G13b9, Cm7.

    I like the cool voice leading from the 13b9 to the min7, that’s what makes it work for me.
    that is a good example. i'm aware of that move but never use it. i agree about the voice leading which is basically a sidestep, E to Eb triad.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i'll check out the CC. the other two examples are not very convincing tbh. caravan is turned into a blues. pls note that as soon as we're approaching the Fm the A naturals dissapear. and milestones isn't even in minor. milestones is in F. cannonballs move with the F# over Am is rather common. mobley and many others do it on the Am of speak low as well. but the happy "dorian" minor is a completely different animal from "real" minor. you know that.

    i was hoping for real minor examples like yesterdays, if i should lose you etc. wes does indeed sometimes play a nat13 on the VI7 chord to the II chord (satin doll, bridge of unit7) but it's again basically a reharm, making the III-VI a II-V one step above. it's a similar move to the mentioned speak low one.
    i'm in doubt that you could find an actual example of wes playing a nat13 into real minor.

    btw minority actually has a nat 13 in the melody. but even that is more an exercise in II V than an actual minor tune...
    Ok - what would constitute a smoking gun for you?

    I don’t buy your distinction- this is why:

    Jazz musicians have always favoured a Dorian or melodic minor (that is minor6) tonality on minor chords (the cc solo is a typical example.) I’ve heard it argued this was Eddie Durham’s innovation in the later 30s (Charlie’s mentor) but I have reason to doubt this.

    The main difference between pre modal and post modal is whether or not they hang out on the seventh..... but even then there are exceptions. Hence the distinction between minor 7th and true minor. It’s not a scalic distinction so much.

    So you could say that the trend post miles was to play the minor chord as more of a suspended sound - if that makes any sense, by outlining . (relates to the cst concept of the 13 being an avoid note on Dorian if you like - Charlie Christian’s generation reversed this.)

    This is also why you rarely hear the blues scale played in full with the b7 in the 30s and 40s....

    So in this sense the I minor chord has always been related to a II V it’s just pre modal it’s more V and post modal it’s more II..... (Not quite as simple as CST says it is though, because m6 has its own distinct tonality to my ear...)

    Anyway I’m a bit busy but will contribute more examples at some point because this is an interesting subject - provided we are not merely arguing semantics.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2019 at 05:16 AM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    that is a good example. i'm aware of that move but never use it. i agree about the voice leading which is basically a sidestep, E to Eb triad.
    If you are interested in finding out more about Pete’s approach to voice leading, I would give this vid a go (if you haven’t seen it.)


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i'll check out the CC. the other two examples are not very convincing tbh. caravan is turned into a blues. pls note that as soon as we're approaching the Fm the A naturals dissapear. and milestones isn't even in minor. milestones is in F. cannonballs move with the F# over Am is rather common. mobley and many others do it on the Am of speak low as well. but the happy "dorian" minor is a completely different animal from "real" minor. you know that.

    i was hoping for real minor examples like yesterdays, if i should lose you etc. wes does indeed sometimes play a nat13 on the VI7 chord to the II chord (satin doll, bridge of unit7) but it's again basically a reharm, making the III-VI a II-V one step above. it's a similar move to the mentioned speak low one.
    i'm in doubt that you could find an actual example of wes playing a nat13 into real minor.

    btw minority actually has a nat 13 in the melody. but even that is more an exercise in II V than an actual minor tune...
    Oh another thought that springs to mind - if you are saying ‘you won’t find many examples of a major II V going directly to Im‘ that’s a subtle distinction that I might agree with.

    In general my MO with II v I s and such is to play a fault vanilla dominant sound and then use some sort of altered ‘dark’ sound (dim, tritone, altered etc) to connect. So yeah.....

    But that to me is a bebop thing.... Pre war players did this less. CC is an interesting one for this reason.

    If you will only accept the resolution from the maj 3 of the key (13 on V7) to m3 of the tonic chord, that’s hard to come up with on demand.... personally I tend to think it’s easier just to say, you can use it if it sounds good.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok - what would constitute a smoking gun for you?
    bird, stitt, mobley, powell, navarro, rollins playing an F# in bar 2 of confirmation or blues for alice would be good enough for me

    CC clearly plays A13 in bar 8 of new baby. he also plays F13 coming out of the bridge of topsy every time

    but: he's basically got only two licks there and he doesn't voice-lead, it's always either 3 5 b7 9 13 (by far his favourite lick) or the bebopscale lick 3 2 1 7 b7 13. there is almost no variation and never any voice leading. not his most creative spots

    c parker wrote many "real" minor tunes, like segment, diverse, etc. i dont think we'd find many nat13 in those tunes.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    bird, stitt, mobley, powell, navarro, rollins playing an F# in bar 2 of confirmation or blues for alice would be good enough for me

    CC clearly plays A13 in bar 8 of new baby. he also plays F13 coming out of the bridge of topsy every time

    but: he's basically got only two licks there and he doesn't voice-lead, it's always either 3 5 b7 9 13 (by far his favourite lick) or the bebopscale lick 3 2 1 7 b7 13. there is almost no variation and never any voice leading. not his most creative spots

    c parker wrote many "real" minor tunes, like segment, diverse, etc. i dont think we'd find many nat13 in those tunes.
    Ok I’m willing to cede the voice leading point ....I’ll report if I come across anything else in the general progress of things...

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok I’m willing to cede the voice leading point ....I’ll report if I come across anything else in the general progress of things...
    you do that. after playing pseudo music for 30 years i'm probably beyond redemption.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    you do that. after playing pseudo music for 30 years i'm probably beyond redemption.
    Haha. Me too

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Haha. Me too
    you know, i got this gig on wednesday. organ trio plus horns. we play a jack mcduff tribute plus some choice standards, so i just pulled out the book to refresh my memory on a few things and, can you adam and eve it, there is this duke jordan tune i*ve been playing for years. lol.