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  1. #1

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    I'm studying Jazz Composition book by Ted Pease. It has been useful to use in conjunction with my Real Book and the mDecks harmonic analysis eBook (I learn about harmony from Jazz Composition, work out what's going on the the Real Book, then check if I got it right in mDecks.

    Anyway. Page 78 of this book is about Modal Interchange. As far as I can tell it seems to suggest a IV- chord is in major keys, as in a minor chord on the 4th degree of the major key scale. I don't understand this because on the 4th degree of the major key should be a major chord (IV), while the IV- chord is what you get on the 4th degree of a minor key.

    Therefore I would have thought that, in the case of these chords, modal interchange would be where you replace the IV chord from major key with a IV- from minor key, rather than the IV- chord being in the major key to begin with as it seems to suggest. What is going on here?

    Modal Interchange Question-modal-interchange-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    The first red bit means that AbM7 and Bb7 can replace Fm7 in the key of C minor. C minor is the parallel minor to C major. It seems wrong because Ab and Bb aren't in C... but they are when they're described as the bIV and bVII. I know it's confusing.

    The second red bit means DbM7 replaces Am7 in C major. That's taken from the Phrygian mode (from Ab major). Again it's confusing because... well, it is.

    If you can bide your time a while I have a chart somewhere which shows all possible substitutions clearly. However, it doesn't mean they all work well. In fact, only relatively few do and are frequently used.

    It would be more useful if your book gave example progressions so you could play them to see the effects. It might do on another page maybe.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    I'm studying Jazz Composition book by Ted Pease. It has been useful to use in conjunction with my Real Book and the mDecks harmonic analysis eBook (I learn about harmony from Jazz Composition, work out what's going on the the Real Book, then check if I got it right in mDecks.

    Anyway. Page 78 of this book is about Modal Interchange. As far as I can tell it seems to suggest a IV- chord is in major keys, as in a minor chord on the 4th degree of the major key scale. I don't understand this because on the 4th degree of the major key should be a major chord (IV), while the IV- chord is what you get on the 4th degree of a minor key.

    Therefore I would have thought that, in the case of these chords, modal interchange would be where you replace the IV chord from major key with a IV- from minor key, rather than the IV- chord being in the major key to begin with as it seems to suggest. What is going on here?


    That's like a double interchange. IV- is often used in the major key. You can see it as coming from the harmonic major scale or as borrowed from the minor scale. So you're actually replacing one chord borrowed from the minor scale with another chord borrowed from the minor scale at that point.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  5. #4

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    The first red bit means that AbM7 and Bb7 can replace Fm7 in the key of C minor. C minor is the parallel minor to C major. It seems wrong because Ab and Bb aren't in C... but they are when they're described as the bIV and bVII. I know it's confusing.

    The second red bit means DbM7 replaces Am7 in C major. That's taken from the Phrygian mode (from Ab major). Again it's confusing because... well, it is.

    It would be more useful if your book gave example progressions so you could play them to see the effects. It might do so on another page maybe.

    The fact is this is a horrifyingly complex subject. I'd recommend that you google it... except I don't if you value your sanity. Alternatively use the search box here and you'll find several threads on this forum that deal with it. You'll probably get more sense out of them.

    The fact is that, although the theoretical possibilities are great, only a few tried and trusted changes are used in most jazz music.

  6. #5

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    The first red bit means that AbM7 and Bb7 can replace Fm7 in the key of C minor. C minor is the parallel minor to C major. It seems wrong because Ab and Bb aren't in C... but they are when they're described as the bIV and bVII. I know it's confusing.

    The second red bit means DbM7 replaces Am7 in C major. That's taken from the Phrygian mode (from Ab major). Again it's confusing because... well, it is.

    It would be more useful if your book gave example progressions so you could play them to see the effects. It might do so on another page maybe.

    The fact is this is a horrifyingly complex subject. I'd recommend that you google it... except don't if you value your sanity. Alternatively use the search box here and you'll find several threads on this forum that deal with it. You'll probably get more sense out of them.

    The fact is that, although the theoretical possibilities are great, only a few tried and trusted interchanges are used in most jazz music.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    That's like a double interchange. IV- is often used in the major key. You can see it as coming from the harmonic major scale or as borrowed from the minor scale.
    I suspected it was something like that. As though the author perceived a kind of normality for VI- in major, therefore like a double interchange as you say if going from that basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    So you're actually replacing one chord borrowed from the minor scale with another chord borrowed from the minor scale at that point..
    Yes. It would look like chord family substitution of the modal interchange chords, if not for the bVII7 chord, which is in the Dominant family of the minor key, rather than the subdominant family of the minor key as vi- and bVIMaj7 are.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    The first red bit means that AbM7 and Bb7 can replace Fm7 in the key of C minor. C minor is the parallel minor to C major. It seems wrong because Ab and Bb aren't in C... but they are when they're described as the bIV and bVII. I know it's confusing.
    I’ve seen the bVII7 occur quite often in major keys, always knew it was modal interchange but never considered it to be replacing any particular hypothetical chord from the original Major key.

    To be honest I’ve never regarded modal interchange as replacing any particular hypothetical chord from the original key, but rather just borrowing chords from a parallel key that sound good. That’s probably where much of my confusion comes from i.e. why does this particular chord from the parallel key replace that particular one from the original? That’s probably a much deeper aspect the above chord family analysis only scratches the surface of.

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    The second red bit means DbM7 replaces Am7 in C major. That's taken from the Phrygian mode (from Ab major). Again it's confusing because... well, it is.
    Do you mean it replaces Fm or Fm7? (IV- in second red box) I sometimes get my IV and VI mixed. Interesting that DbMaj7 contains Db, F, Ab, C, which shares all notes from the original F minor chord (F, Ab, C) except for Db.

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    It would be more useful if your book gave example progressions so you could play them to see the effects. It might do so on another page maybe.
    Yes the book does just that. I’m looking forward to progressing onto that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    The fact is this is a horrifyingly complex subject. I'd recommend that you google it... except don't if you value your sanity. Alternatively use the search box here and you'll find several threads on this forum that deal with it. You'll probably get more sense out of them.
    True. Mountains always look bigger when looking up, as opposed to down from the top. Keep on climbing!

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    The fact is that, although the theoretical possibilities are great, only a few tried and trusted interchanges are used in most jazz music.
    Agreed. It’s more about the movement between chords not just the theoretical concepts. Perhaps in the book author’s case the VI- has become so tried and tested he’s seems to have got this as being in the major key before modal interchanging it. If so I disagree with him and see VI- in a major key as modal interchange!

  8. #7

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    Borrowing vs Replacing

    Borrow - take and use (something that belongs to someone else)
    with the intention of returning it

    Replace - take the place of

    These are compatible ideas.
    Borrowing is referencing the source of where the material is drawn from.
    Replacing is focused on usage, defined as a substitute for the fundamental
    harmonic content of the scale/key.





  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    why does this particular chord from the parallel key replace that particular one from the original?
    Because it works is the usual answer! Because it sounds right/good and produces the desired effect.

    To be honest, my very strong advice would to not take MI too seriously. When one first encounters it, it's like opening up a whole cornucopia of delights, an endless possibility of exciting new sounds, and all the rest of it. Actually in practice a lot of the options are unworkable simply because they don't sound good at all.

    A pointed example of that would that, technically, one could replace, in Dm7-G7-CM7, the G7 with a Gm7 (from either the C dorian, mixolydian or aeolian modes). But would you? Gm7 before CM7? So a lot of it is simply redundant from a practical point of view.

    The most commonly used MI's that work are the backdoor progression (Fm7-Bb7-CM7), replacing a major 2-5 with a minor one (Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7), embellishing a IV-I with the ivm6 (FM7-Fm6-CM7), replacing the V with ivm6 (Dm7-Fm6-CM7), replacing a final I with the bIIM7 (G7-DbM7-CM7), or replacing the V with the bV7b5 (Db7b5-C6), and that kind of thing.

    Of course, there are other changes that I may have forgotten but I think those are the main ones in common use. In a major key, anyway. Or sometimes composers might just shove in a non-diatonic chord simply because it sounds good at that point, nothing academic about it!

    It's just a point and probably you'll come to it if you're not there already :-)

  10. #9

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    If you're interested, here's a chart with major key possibilities. It's incomplete because one could also include all the chords from the harmonic and melodic minor scales. However -

    Modal Interchange Question-mi_chart1-jpg

    Take, say, a 6-2-5-1 in C -- Am7-Dm7-G7-CM7 -- and replace with some of the options. You could try (I'm just selecting at random):

    AbM7 - Dm7b5 - GbM7 - CM7

    If you like it, use it! It's not illegal :-)

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    why does this particular chord from the parallel key replace that particular one from the original?
    Because it works is the usual answer. Because it sounds right/good and produces the desired effect.

    To be honest, my very strong advice would to not take MI too seriously. When one first encounters it, it's like opening up a whole cornucopia of delights, an endless possibility of exciting new sounds, and all the rest of it. Actually in practice a lot of the options are unworkable simply because they don't sound good at all.

    A pointed example of that would that, technically, one could replace, in Dm7-G7-CM7, the G7 with a Gm7 (from either the C dorian, mixolydian or aeolian modes). But would you? Gm7 before CM7? So a lot of it is simply redundant from a practical point of view.

    The most commonly used MI's that work are the backdoor progression (Fm7-Bb7-CM7), replacing a major 2-5 with a minor one (Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7), embellishing a IV-I with the ivm6 (FM7-Fm6-CM7), replacing the V with ivm6 (Dm7-Fm6-CM7), replacing a final I with the bIIM7 (G7-DbM7-CM7), or replacing the V with the bV7b5 (Db7b5-C6), and that kind of thing.

    Of course, I'm sure there are other changes that I may have forgotten but I think those are the main ones in common use. In a major key, anyway. Or sometimes composers might just shove in a non-diatonic chord simply because it sounds good at that point, nothing academic about it.

    It's just a point and probably you'll come to it if you're not there already :-)

  12. #11

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    If you're interested, here's a chart with major key possibilities. It's incomplete because one could also include all the chords from the harmonic and melodic minor scales. However -

    Modal Interchange Question-mi_chart1-jpg

    Take, say, a 6-2-5-1 in C -- Am7-Dm7-G7-CM7 -- and replace with some of the options. You could try (I'm just selecting at random):

    AbM7 - Dm7b5 - GbM7 - CM7

    If you like it, use it! It's not illegal

  13. #12

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    Tonality is built around the idea of centricity.
    A collection of notes and harmonies orbiting around a central pitch and chord.
    Modes present a wealth of variations of brighter/darker content and relationships.
    Modal interchange (as I imagine it) is the conscious mixing of colors drawn from
    a combination of scale sources. This can be a single chord or chord sequence
    drawn from a secondary source.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Because it works is the usual answer. Because it sounds right/good and produces the desired effect.

    To be honest, my very strong advice would to not take MI too seriously. When one first encounters it, it's like opening up a whole cornucopia of delights, an endless possibility of exciting new sounds, and all the rest of it. Actually in practice a lot of the options are unworkable simply because they don't sound good at all.
    Agree. That was my approach when filling in the MI exercise in the book, what sounds best.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    A pointed example of that would that, technically, one could replace, in Dm7-G7-CM7, the G7 with a Gm7 (from either the C dorian, mixolydian or aeolian modes). But would you? Gm7 before CM7? So a lot of it is simply redundant from a practical point of view.
    I agree. It sounds OK but is not strong and doesn’t really move.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    The most commonly used MI's that work are the backdoor progression (Fm7-Bb7-CM7), replacing a major 2-5 with a minor one (Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7), embellishing a IV-I with the ivm6 (FM7-Fm6-CM7), replacing the V with ivm6 (Dm7-Fm6-CM7), replacing a final I with the bIIM7 (G7-DbM7-CM7), or replacing the V with the bV7b5 (Db7b5-C6), and that kind of thing.
    Just tried them out, liking it. No doubt I’ve come across them numerous times in the Real Book. I don’t like to criticize as I am learning from you and it’s just an internet post not like your writing a book, but I can’t place what parallel tonality Db7b5 would have interchanged from in the case of Db7b5-C6. Isn’t Db7b5 is a tritone sub, while replacing the V with the bV7b5 would actually give you Gb7b5 to C6?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    If you're interested, here's a chart with major key possibilities. It's incomplete because one could also include all the chords from the harmonic and melodic minor scales. However -

    Modal Interchange Question-mi_chart1-jpg

    Take, say, a 6-2-5-1 in C -- Am7-Dm7-G7-CM7 -- and replace with some of the options. You could try (I'm just selecting at random):

    AbM7 - Dm7b5 - GbM7 - CM7

    If you like it, use it! It's not illegal
    Sounds good. The GbM7 borrowed from Locrian sounds quirky strong before resolving to CM7 as would using the V-7b5 to replace the V7. Where did you get that chart from please?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    I can’t place what parallel tonality Db7b5 would have interchanged from in the case of Db7b5-C6. Isn’t Db7b5 is a tritone sub, while replacing the V with the bV7b5 would actually give you Gb7b5 to C6?
    Db7b5 is a tritone sub of G7 and is used in lots of Bossa tunes, like Girl From Ipanema (in F). It's in the chart as a possible V7 sub from the Locrian mode.

    The verse of GFI goes:

    FM7 - G13 - Gm7/Gb7b5 - FM7/Gb7b5. It's a sub for C7.

    Where did you get that chart from please?
    I just googled 'Modal Interchange Chart'.

  16. #15

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    I never really heard Modal interchange. Just probably becasue I do not hear contextual 'kinship' of the modes in question.

    Always felt as if it was a mechanical tool.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I never really heard Modal interchange. Just probably becasue I do not hear contextual 'kinship' of the modes in question.

    Always felt as if it was a mechanical tool.
    Do you not hear major/minor stuff?

    There are different ways to contextualise it though. Barry Harris has his 8 note scales which encapsulates the most common borrowed minor key chords.

    Also there’s harmonic major

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Do you not hear major/minor stuff?

    There are different ways to contextualise it though. Barry Harris has his 8 note scales which encapsulates the most common borrowed minor key chords.

    Also there’s harmonic major
    I thought about it. I think I hear a relations between modes very contextually.
    Like relative major/minor... I hear their relation not as modes but as keys.. but this is already a context.

    That's why I hear a parallel minor/major as very remote actually. And it's important - because in Schubert's music shifting to parallel major/minor is always something forced unnatural... I mean this remote relation was heard as part of the language.

    Obviously when someone in C major 'borrows' something from from C minor - just the conception sounds a bit weird to me...
    And for me harmonic major is just a different thing than natural major.. very far one from another.

    I am not against it of course.. whatever works but I can't use tools that I don't hear in music.

    I hear realtions in modal music too but they are also contextual.

    Anyway I can't hear the modes relative just through common root.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post

    Obviously when someone in C major 'borrows' something from from C minor - sounds a bit weird to me...
    It shouldn't, it's standard jazz harmony.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It shouldn't, it's standard jazz harmony.
    it can be a standard tool to bring in or develope some ideas in jazz but it is not standard harmonic language in jazz to my hearing.
    Language is not theory.

    And referring to that one phrase out of the whole post of mine is not quite correct and may lead to misunderstanding becasue I explained there why I do not hear it as relative.

    For me relations are defined by the musical contex not by formal coincidence of some notes.
    For me minor and major are functional first of all and I hear them as keys and they are very remote form each other as keys.

    As modes - can someone give me an actual example from a real jazz piece or solo where one can clearly hear C major and C minor as relative modes and use this relation as idioms to create musical narration?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    it can be a standard tool to bring in or develope some ideas in jazz but it is not standard harmonic language in jazz to my hearing.
    Language is not theory.

    And referring to that one phrase out of the whole post of mine is not quite correct and may lead to misunderstanding becasue I explained there why I do not hear it as relative.

    For me relations are defined by the musical contex not by formal coincidence of some notes.
    For me minor and major are functional first of all and I hear them as keys and they are very remote form each other as keys.

    As modes - can someone give me an actual example from a real jazz piece or solo where one can clearly hear C major and C minor as relative modes and use this relation as idioms to create musical narration?
    Yardbird Suite?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yardbird Suite?
    Thank you.
    Could to specify exactly? I mean analyze the language from point of view of Cmaj and Cmin scales relations? Probably this could help me into hearing it

    I see it visually of course - but I do not hear there scale relations

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Thank you.
    Could to specify exactly? I mean analyze the language from point of view of Cmaj and Cmin scales relations? Probably this could help me into hearing it

    I see it visually of course - but I do not hear there scale relations
    Just the A section melody. First few bars.

    The melody to me clearly modulates from C major to C minor with the b7, b6 and b3 in the second bar.

    That weaving in and out of parallel major/minor to me defines the harmonic sound world of Charlie Parker's music, especially the b7-b6-5 cadence. It's part of the reason it sounded slick and modern at the time. Obviously he didn't invent it any more than Rembrandt invented the colour brown, but it became a defining feature of his music to my ears. The same types of minor borrowings are all over Soul, R&B including modern soul influenced pop and neo-soul.

    How would you hear it?

  24. #23

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    ust the A section melody. First few bars.

    The melody to me clearly modulates from C major to C minor with the b7, b6 and b3 in the second bar.

    That weaving in and out of parallel major/minor to me defines the harmonic sound world of Charlie Parker's music, especially the b7-b6-5 cadence. It's part of the reason it sounded slick and modern at the time. Obviously he didn't invent it any more than Rembrandt invented the colour brown, but it became a defining feature of his music to my ears. The same types of minor borrowings are all over Soul, R&B including modern soul influenced pop and neo-soul.

    How would you hear it?
    Yes I understand what you mean... but I honestly though I clearly see (I mean exactly see - not hear) what you are coming from I do not hear it as Cmajor - C minor... I hear it as minor subdominant.

    It is like plagal turnaround with minor subdominant... just a bit more extended maybe as he describes minor sound more intensively.

    You see.. I think my ear is more rooted in th ehearing of C major to C minor like something of a very strong contrast... (it is definitely from classical background I admit... you see they have a dominant in common but in classical thinkimg it would be too straight to use it (except final major chord) - so it always sounds as something going 'outside' - something perverse even... some kind of distortion of musical space.
    The famous example from major to minor could be Moonlight Sonata at the beginning where he goes directly from E major to E minor - to me it sounds like someone suddely sunk... (the whole opening section there is tremendous actually)
    Schubert used it quite a lot... Impruptu Op.90 #1 - it is in C minor - but there is suddely a C major chord - yes it is in cadence but the minor is so clearly described that this C major sound like some kind of very forced effort...
    Interesting example is Chopin - who often used major/minor for two different sections. Whithout any preparation... but with him I think his general indifference to functional relationship. He just goes straight.
    All this is just to illustrate what I mean...

    And I think probably you would agree it is very different from what is going on in Parker's style there... where this is very sof and does not create any confluct or serious tension...
    Of course if one wish one can explain minor subdominant in major as borrowing from parllel minor... but I just do not get what for...

    But thank you anyway! At least now I see what is meant under it


    PS
    By the way it is interesting that in German (and Russian too) terminolgy parallel means what in English is realtive (like C major and A minor)... I suddenly thought maybe terminology actully represents (or even affects) the perception?

    The melody to me clearly modulates from C major to C minor with the b7, b6 and b3 in the second bar.
    It is interesting... I wold never say that in such a context.. melody can't modulate for me (harmony it outlines - can)

  25. #24

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    If you borrow from C (harmonic) minor into C major you basically get an altered effect which is totally a jazz sound. Play Dm7b5 - G7b9 - CM7 and it's there. It's probably that simple.
    thanks,

    but it does not sound C minor to me at that monent when it sounds)))... altered dom yes, maybe minor subdominant - yes but not c minor

    Again I understand the tool and how it is applied... I sa just I do not hear realtive minor thing there.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yes I understand what you mean... but I honestly though I clearly see (I mean exactly see - not hear) what you are coming from I do not hear it as Cmajor - C minor... I hear it as minor subdominant.

    It is like plagal turnaround with minor subdominant... just a bit more extended maybe as he describes minor sound more intensively.

    You see.. I think my ear is more rooted in th ehearing of C major to C minor like something of a very strong contrast... (it is definitely from classical background I admit... you see they have a dominant in common but in classical thinkimg it would be too straight to use it (except final major chord) - so it always sounds as something going 'outside' - something perverse even... some kind of distortion of musical space.
    The famous example from major to minor could be Moonlight Sonata at the beginning where he goes directly from E major to E minor - to me it sounds like someone suddely sunk... (the whole opening section there is tremendous actually)
    Schubert used it quite a lot... Impruptu Op.90 #1 - it is in C minor - but there is suddely a C major chord - yes it is in cadence but the minor is so clearly described that this C major sound like some kind of very forced effort...
    Interesting example is Chopin - who often used major/minor for two different sections. Whithout any preparation... but with him I think his general indifference to functional relationship. He just goes straight.
    All this is just to illustrate what I mean...

    And I think probably you would agree it is very different from what is going on in Parker's style there... where this is very sof and does not create any confluct or serious tension...
    Of course if one wish one can explain minor subdominant in major as borrowing from parllel minor... but I just do not get what for...

    But thank you anyway! At least now I see what is meant under it


    PS
    By the way it is interesting that in German (and Russian too) terminolgy parallel means what in English is realtive (like C major and A minor)... I suddenly thought maybe terminology actully represents (or even affects) the perception?
    I read a book on classical harmony once - the Dynamics of Harmony by George Pratt - that said we should abandon the idea of major and parallel minor and think of one unified tonality. I think the author might have an interesting conversation with Barry Harris...

    OK. Let's get silly - what about the use of the Lydian cadence in the Dorian tonality of Machaut's Kyrie?


  27. #26

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    OK. Let's get silly - what about the use of the Lydian cadence in the Dorian tonality of Machaut's Kyrie?

    Yes, could be something like that.... and I am probably that 14th century guy who would say: What Lydian? I hear just voice-leading to Dorian!

    (though actually Lydian here would be rather a rudimental thinking, and with Parker I think it is the converse?)


    I read a book on classical harmony once - the Dynamics of Harmony by George Pratt - that said we should abandon the idea of major and parallel minor and think of one unified tonality.
    It may make sense as some abstract idea - if you think of music as of sounds -(or for some modern tonality conception) but hardly in application to European music at least from high baroque till late 19th century where keys and their realtions are meaningful elements of the language (whether they in these terms or not).
    It is like saying that circle and square are just one and the same shape or red and blure are just the same colours and apply itn to European painting, or that actually there is no difference between rondo and sonet... if you do it you will not understand the painting or the poem.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I understand the tool and how it is applied
    That's all you need, just apply it :-)

    Here's this. LOTS of minor 2-5's before a M7. I don't think any of them sound particularly 'minor'.


  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yes, could be something like that.... and I am probably that 14th century guy who would say: What Lydian? I hear just voice-leading to Dorian!


    (though actually Lydian here would be rather a rudimental thinking, and with Parker I think it is the converse?)
    Actually as far as I know there are no treatises on 14th century harmony. The term 'Lydian cadence' is modern. So who knows how they thought of it or heard it? But obviously plainsongs were categorised according to modes, and this music was usually an elaborate embellishment of plainsong pitches.

    It may make sense as some abstract idea - if you think of music as of sounds -(or for some modern tonality conception) but hardly in application to European music at least from high baroque till late 19th century where keys and their realtions are meaningful elements of the language (whether they in these terms or not).
    It is like saying that circle and square are just one and the same shape or red and blure are just the same colours and apply itn to European painting, or that actually there is no difference between rondo and sonet... if you do it you will not understand the painting or the poem.
    I dunno it's getting pretty philosophical. I think I hear major/minor. I always liked that duality when I hear it...

    But we are talking about jazz, presumably

    So the line 'how strange the change from major to minor' means nothing to you? ;-)

  30. #29

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    Actually as far as I know there are no treatises on 14th century harmony. The term 'Lydian cadence' is modern. So who knows how they thought of it or heard it? But obviously plainsongs were categorised according to modes, and this music was usually an elaborate embellishment of plainsong pitches.
    It coincided that I have been getting more into that stuff recently... practically playing the music and communicating with the players like Rodenkirchen, Danil Ryabchikov here (outstanding citole player) and others. Very interesting how deeply they go into that without actually having really direct sources, you really must be dissolved in the period to recreate something convinicingly. Sometimes I think that baroque player have too many sources and it takes away their own resposibility for choices.

    dunno it's getting pretty philosophical. I think I hear major/minor. I always liked that duality when I hear it...

    But we are talking about jazz, presumably
    If you see my first post here there is nothing philosophical in it (and even if there were the philosophy is practical thing too).

    I do not mind you hear that.
    I understood what you meant.

    So the line 'how strange the change from major to minor' means nothing to you?
    I do not hear change for major to minor in opening line of Yradbird Suite ... it is just major for me.
    This is what the whole hearing and terminology thing is about for me.
    I name only what I experience or hear - that is why there is no abstract philosophy for me where someone can see some.

    I believe see the picture from different angles or I would say from different scopes maybe?
    I see the whole line of landscape on it as primary thing that is more essential for me for the meaning whole picture...
    and you see some changes in that line as some sort of contrasting one to another ans you find this essential.
    I see these changes too but for me they fit perfectly the whole line... making no contrast.

    We do not contradict each other in general probaly, but the interprestation is different and it affect many thing (how we play an dthink in music for example).

    Thanks for sharing anyway - becasue actually this thread made some things clearer for me.
    I will not be surprised if in a year I will finally say: hm... there is some sort of minor/major thing in that line...

  31. #30

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    Bb7 is backdoor to C, backdoor acts like IV or V7.
    Abmaj7 is paralell to Fm7
    Db7 is tritone of V7.

    In a big picture all IV and V are interchangeable both melodically and harmonically. So, basicaly you've got I and V.
    Learn your I and your V and off you go.
    Look at Schoenberg harmonic regions for deeper understanding, but be cautious bcs in jazz other substitutions are used. Another story...

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It coincided that I have been getting more into that stuff recently... practically playing the music and communicating with the players like Rodenkirchen, Danil Ryabchikov here (outstanding citole player) and others. Very interesting how deeply they go into that without actually having really direct sources, you really must be dissolved in the period to recreate something convinicingly. Sometimes I think that baroque player have too many sources and it takes away their own resposibility for choices.
    I think this is interesting too- you can take the gamut (see what I did there?) of recordings of Machaut’s mass from the Hilliard Ensemble through to the Ensemble Organum... and that’s just Acapella recordings...

    Seems more fun to me.